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3. Caught or naught?, Page 2

"Hmmmpf! That's all we need, a steroids scandal in the fly fishing arena! Just imagine."

Some day we will find out that Steve Rajeff won all of those casting awards by taking steroids...I hope not.

Jonathon

Exactly. As seen in the next episode of "Fly Rod & Reel."

I'll pose one for you all to consider...

I was guiding a fellow many years ago on a stream that shall go unnamed in the Sierra's (everybody's got to have a few secrets only a thousand other guys know). We arrived fairly early, so I advised him to tie on a big Muddler (I told you this was years ago) to work the edges and dark pockets until things warmed up a little. Did he listen? No way! He had a look on his face like I asked him to drink hemlock. "Well, there goes the tip", I thought to myself. Mumbling something about the moral depravity of fishing wet, he asked my opinion on dry fly choice. I was thinking, "Hell, it's 8 in the morning, so take your pick since it's a waste of time anyway". What came out of my mouth was, "Try a yellow Humpy". On went an Adams...

While he's putzing away (and I'm pondering my career choice) he manages to raise a fish. With a look of triumph he dericked the poor little guy towards his net for a quick release. "Not bad huh?", "No, that's a good start", I replied. Now he's back at with all the ferver of a guy that thinks he's just made his point and wants to rub it in.

Another ten yards or so down stream he raises another fish on the shallow edge of a nice depression. It was one of the hotspots I wanted him to work a muddler through. The next thing I know his delight turned to discust when the fish snagged himself on a "stick". Now keep in mind that I was supposed to believe that the twin brother of the fish he uncemoniosly skipped across the water a few minutes earlier had somehow managed to bolt to the bottom of a 5 ft pool and snag himself. As I worked my around to see what was going on, the line seemed to keep increasing it's angle away from me. "I dont think it;s snagged on a stick" , yes it is, yes it is.. I could see it just a second ago... Look there it is, see it?"

Without boring you with the back and forth of the "stick" fight, suffice to say that after ten minutes or so, I was out in the water on my knees preparing to net the "stick". He brought it up three times and got it's head out of the water before it would turn back down. And it looked at me the same way each time. It was a malelevolent eyes rolled up stare focused right at me! Coupled with that seven inches of trout sideways in his mouth, it was almost frightening. It was as if he was saying "This is my breakfast, you hear me, mine! If you keep trying to take it away, you better not stay in the water".

He never did let go (as I had hoped), and if it appeared that I had intentially farmed it I would have been toast with my client. Back then, "Catch and Release" was far from universal, and though incouraged, it was certainly not something a guide would dare to impose. he wanted that fish bad.

When I scooped him out of the water, the "fisherman" started to hoot and holler like he'd just won the lottery or something. After he settled down, he proposed the "guide delema". "How big is it?" (Uh oh). I responded quickly without looking at him "How big do you think it is?" If he replyed, "You first!" I knew I was sunk. Luckily he blurted out, "Oh, Well over twenty two inches" to which I replied "Pretty close".

It was 20" of emaciated brown with the head of a wolf and the body of an eel that had survived the Fall spawn and a rugged winter. I've never heard of (let alone witnessed) anything like it since. Oh, I've heard lots of stories of small fish hooked on flies being nailed by bigger ones. Happened to me a lot in Alaska with big char and lakers attacking grayling I'd hook... But to hang on like that? The client reasoned that since his fly was in the little fish and the big fish was on the little one it was a legal take. I admitted it was the dammdest thing I'd ever seen and didn't argue the point. I have to admit, he did agree to release the fish (which was big of him for back then), and he did tip well. But a fair caught fish? What do you think?

Kurt,

Let's not, you and I, get started on guide stories...We will never get anything else done...

That poor Brown was serious because he had a mighty hunger and for all his effort and determination, its too bad he didn't break the guy off! This, I know, may have screwed with your tip but...It would of helped a spawning Brown recover a bit, eh!?

Everytime I catch a dink, floating with a friend, and I'm fishing sized 18 dorothea's when he wants me to be tossing a monster Brown Drake pattern, he always jokes, "Spence. As you are reeling that little fella in run him by that big old log first...;)"

I know I may upset Tony here, but it has been my experience that making a guide happy doesn't take too much effort and it begins by listening to what he has to say...The man floats the river every damn day, he needs to eat ergo he wants to make you happy, you do want to catch fish don't you?

I have reported it elsewhere here on this site and even posted some of the pictures, but I let a guide guide me on the Madison in 1995 and had one of the best damn mornings of fishing in my life...It was giddy fishing with both anglers in the boat in to fish at the same time etc... I put Spence's pre-conceived notions back in the box for a bit and it was katie-bar-the-door!

Fair or foul??? I think it was a draw...Both the "yahoo" and the Brown ended up losing the fish.

Spence

I have had many bass clamp onto bluegills I was fighting, both on spinning rods and fly rods, and the result is either the bass eventually spits out the bluegill or breaks the line. However, last year the miraculous finally happened: a bass attacked a bluegill I had hooked on a Woolly Bugger, somehow spit out the bluegill, and ended up with the Woolly Bugger stuck in his own mouth! He was a beautiful 18-incher who's photo I posted on here back in September. I've always wished this would happen but this was the first time. Which raises the question: does this constitute BAIT FISHING???

Never had it happen with trout...

Jonathon

Kurt, that's NOT fair caught -if he truly was a dry fly purist LOL.

In a FF only stretch -no.

Otherwise, legal?? It's not legal to net trout. Or spear or electroshock, or poison, or... noodling?? I guess you'd have to look at your states regs for "fair take" definitions. I'm going to argue, as a pretend defense lawyer, that YES! IT was legal bc the angler is so adept that he caught his bait and trophy in one fell swoop!

But "Fair?" To steal an emaciated trout's fair caught breakfast?? I don't know about that.:)

Good story. Serves him right. Think he thought about it much after?? I doubt it. Fantasies are just that.

Hi guys -

My story had a happy ending. Later in the summer the same fish was taken a little further down stream by a different fisherman (no mistaking that face and the old wound on his head). He'd put back on quite a bit of weight and was doing fine.

Also, I don't want to desparage the first fisherman too much by hanging today's ethos on him. Keep in mind this was back in the day before we had spec. reg. waters and the daily creel limit for all trout streams was 10 fish, no pound limits. Hell, it wasn't too many years before that most guys would stack 'em up like chordwood, moi included. On most of the exclusive clubs it was anathema NOT to kill your catch (don't want to train 'em to be gun shy). It was considered unethical to keep fishing after you "filled" out. How they were caught was the important thing, not what was done with the fish. The "fraternity" of voices for special regs. was tiny back then and we were considered snobs. I know for the guys that didn't start until the early '80's or later it may be a little hard to get their arms around it, but there it is. For his day, the guy was actually very "enlightened". He handled his fish and tackle well and released properly everything he caught. Had to mention this for CYA in case he ever shows up on the forum! Though he'd have to be in his late 80's if he's still alive... but you never know about progeny or younger guys he mentored.

Spence - About guide stories; You got that right!

Paul - About intentional snaggers (whether mouth caught or not). Your language was a little ambiguous; could you tell us how you really feel about it?:) They are to sport fishing what rapists are to the "marital act". I don't see the moral difference between intentionally drifting an egg or nymph into their resperation patterns or dragging a treble across their backs. We had a group of reprobates out here throwing little "spoons" at our salmon with trebles on 'em the size of grappling hooks. Fish & Game finally caught on and limited tackle to single barbless hooks that could not be larger than the bait or lure to which it was affixed. That fixed their wagons. Probably off dog fighting or torturing cats somewhere, if they're not in prison. Oh, and about the guy in the story ever thinking about it? No doubt!! After more than thirty years, I still am.. and he was pretty impressed at the time.

Falsifly - Gotta be in the mouth or lips (hopefully not deeper). Bottom line is whatever was the "procuring cause" to hand or net earns the commission. The important part is the memory/story anyway. Besides, Who want's to hear another standard "I caught a huge trout on a fly" story? Yours is much more interesting.

This thread is so long that I can't scroll down without losing my post, but I remember somebody mentioned a properly hooked and landed bass that started with a blue gill. RU making that up?:) That takes serendipity to a whole different level! I've seen a fair amount of fish that were originally hooked properly but ended up fouled (especially on multiple fly rigs), but the other way around? After the fly was in another fishes mouth? Wow!! Great story!!! I admit such an occurrence would prove the exception to the rule about mouth hooked being fair. But what if the water were murky and you couldn't see the action? If a tree falls in the forest and nobody's there to here it, did it really happen?:)

Kurt

Hi Jonathon,

Just scrolled down to see you're the guy with the Bass/Blue gill story. Sorry about that. Amazing!! Had to be worth more than a few grins that day!

Kurt

Kurt, that was the first time it's ever happened to me. I'm still not even sure that's exactly the way it happened, but I swear I hooked a bluegill and then suddenly ended up with a bass clamped onto him - it was at least the third time that day that it had happened, one bass took a bluegill halfway across the pond before he finally let him go! And not the first day it had happened at that pond either. Well, Mr. Bucketmouth clamps down, yanks on it for a while, then the next thing I swear I see is the bluegill getting ejected from the bass' mouth and I'm now tied hard and fast to the bass instead! The only thing I can figure is that the bluegill was lightly hooked and that during the fight the Woolly Bugger came loose, then caught the inside of the bass' mouth from tension on the line (and his mouth must have been closed because he was trying to hang on to the bluegill). The bass must have figured this bluegill was more trouble than it was worth, why the heck is it pulling back on me, and spit it out in an attempt to rid himself of the problem...

So many times I've often wondered, when a bass attacks a hooked bluegill, could I just YANK REALLY HARD and tear the fly out of the bluegill's mouth and hook the bass after all? Well, this time it seemed to happen for me! And I'm sure that bluegill was happy that it ended that way...

Jonathon

P.S. Trees were falling in forests for millions of years before there were humans around to hear them...And I've had to cross plenty of downed logs that got that way without anyone hearing it happen...When a bluegill suddenly starts pulling five times as hard, it's not hard to figure out what's going on!

;oD

JMD

Hey Jonathon,

Don't waffle on me now!! I DO believe you were abducted by aliens.. Really I do... Reminds me of that line in an old Wallis Beery or Victor McGlaughlin movie (I always get those two confused) after telling a whole pub full of gents a whopper. He looked around at all the incredulous stares and said, "Are those hints of doubt I see in your as-of-yet unbruised eyes?":)

Seriously, I think your story is totaly plausible and doubt that it happened the other way because I think you would have felt the slack. I was thinking of the image of a fish sideways in the jaws of a buster with the hook external to his mouth. I believe your experience is pretty much "par for the course" among bait fisherman. They hook their minnows through the lips and drop 'em below a big cork. On the take, minnow, hook, and all is literally inhaled. Once Mr. Bass feels the hook he opens his mouth and starts to shake violently in an attempt to expel whatever's got hold of him. Almost always the violence rips the minnow off the hook and it's expelled like a dead leaf. What is extraordinary about your story is that the "bait minnow" was so big and the "bait hook" was so small in relation to one another! But I think the same principle is involved.

Oh, and on the tree in the forest. You haven't tripped over any sore mouthed bluegills in murky water have you?:) OK, the tree thing was a bad choice of metaphor to use in a forum full of guys that are in the woods all the time. Plagiarist that I am, I should have put it in quotes since it actually comes from an old metaphysical argument involving the existence of that which cannot be perceived by the senses. Iiieeee don't think I want to go any deeper into that. The hairs on the back of my neck are starting to stand... I feel a quote from Dylan coming! Spence? You there? Anyway, a good SB Sunday to all!

Kurt

Oh, Jonathan's story IS more than plausible -it happened to me. First, I've had bass, pike, and trout take small fish I've hooked. But this one's even weirder:

I LOVE to catch fish -any fish. (That introduces the main character)
I figured out how to catch "minnows" on an UL spinning rod, 2lb line, and a #20 hook with a tiny scrap of worm on it. Leave about 4" of rod tip over the breakwall to act sort of like a "springy-bobber (ice fishers will know it). Rod tip quivers, pick up! I caught cool things like silversides and emerald shiners (great lakes trib), logperch, and fingerlings of many species. How cool is that, huh? One evening I picked up and felt a little dance, then whoooomph! I was suddenly back-reeling! Up came a pike about 18" long, with that #20 in the tip of it's snout, on the inside.

Catching a Muskie on a Crappie, while Crappie fishing, happens here all the time.

GOOOOOO PACKERSSSSSSSSSS

Yes inded. Big cheese all the way!

Kurt, as an avid amateur astronomer, I must confess to not believing in aliens. Maybe if some DID actually abduct me during one of my forays into the backwoods I WOULD believe in them, but I would want to see some ID first - where's your Interstellar Spacecraft Operator's License and Warp Drive Registration there, Mr. Bug Eyes??? I could go off on quite a tangent here about what I think those "flying saucers" REALLy are, as in funny how they started showing up right after WWII when we brought all of those German scientists over (it's work for us now or the hangman's noose for you, buddy!)...that's for another time and perhaps another website...

I did once watch in horror as a largemouth in the two-foot range made a bluegill I was fighting in the 6-7" range just "disappear". He took the 'gill for a ride, let him go, and grabbed him again, this time for keeps - he broke the leader...Same pond in TX from which I caught my all-time all-tackle (on a fly rod too) biggest largemouth...

Jonathon

P.S. Paul, that sounds like a great way to catch aquarium specimens! I'll have to dig out those size 20 hooks and tie up some midge patterns...

JMD

Jonathon - Bugs to galaxies... That's quite a spectrum of interest. That crack about German scientists and UFO's. I never heard that before. But, you know.... I think you're right!! Way too coincidental... Reminds me of that old Johnny Carson Joke (I think it was him anyway), "The Arms Race isn't between us and the Russians, it's between our German scientists and their German scientists.... Good thing we feed ours better!" It's also a good thing Hitler wasn't a patient man, or we'd all be in deep doodoo. But you're right, this topic is probably better for another forum...

Kurt

Hitler was a blatant opportunist, a pathological liar, a military idiot who thought he was a genius, and just plain criminally insane (piss off Russia and the U.S. at the same time??? Scare off your best Jewish scientists so they help us build the bomb instead???). Also, a hypochodriac, drug addict, and possibly suffering from Parkinson's Disease. How could you expect someone like that to be patient?? Good thing, though, that we got von Braun and his boys...There's a Tom Lehrer song about all that...

Jonathon

P.S. If a tree falls on ME in the forest, I'm sure I will make a sound...

;oD

JMD

Like my Grandpa used to say with a laugh when I was a kid, "That can't hurt that bad, I don't feel it!" :)