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3. Global Warming and Flyfishing, Page 5

Whoa - my apologies, Gene. Really, in nothing I've said have I tried to offend you. And I didn't know I was so full of sh*t - thanks for setting me straight on that. I am not an expert on these issues, and have said as much many, many times - I'm just a regular person trying to make sense of it all. I'm actually not particularly well connected with the right-wing propaganda machine (I don't really even know where I'd go to read up on its positions), but if anything I've said just sounds like I'm parroting some crackpot in Washington, I truly do apologize. I'm really not trying to be contentious just to cloud an issue that is actually crystal clear, and I'm not trying to delude myself into a certain convenient position in spite of the obvious facts. But if the issue isn't crystal clear to me and the only response I get to anything I say is a series of verbal lashings, well... how is that to persuade me to think a certain way? If this discussion is that unproductive, maybe you're right and it would be best just to stop.

-Shawn

Shawn:

I don't care what you believe but did you ever listen to what you say in regards to the science out there. When you make a statement that there are no objective experts on global warming? Think about that for moment! First of all how many experts on global warming do you know of? This administration is the most political in history. They have changed scientific reports to engender their political viewpoint in every aspect of government more than any other administration in history. They have suppressed information from the public sector because they don't want people to know what is going on? They don't believe in evolution and wanted it taken out of school. They have forced on the educational system (as you should know as an educator) the no child left behind law which is a joke.

How can you not see the bigger picture: that this is a state of fascist thought control over everything. Read 1984 again by Orwell and the parallels are too scary to even think about.

When you decide that frozen embryos (which are going to be thrown out in most cases) are killing people because someone is allowing stem cell research and argue this from a logical and morality position of Bush who has killed millions of innocent people, and allowed New Orleans to basically rot-- it's hard for most of us to understand what you mean by morality. What if there isn't a God? Do you or Bush have the right to make that decision?

More people on this planet have been killed in the name of morality and God than we need to mention. I'm sure you are a good guy and I'm sorry I hammered you so much but I've seen those talking points over and over again. People aren't necessarily liberal or conservative..they are just people who struggle to survive in a world that isn't fair for the average worker out there (just like yourself who probably doesn't get paid what you are worth as an instructor. However, what has happened to this country in the last number of years is paramount to a coup de tat and people's rights, economy, environment, and lives have made been worst by someone who took advantage of 911 to advance a radical agenda against almost everyone except the super rich.

Sinclair Lewis said it best: "When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a Flag carrying a Cross." But even James Madison knew of the potential of what could occur in this country when he said, "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."

But perhaps Galileo had the greatest response about morality, science, religion, and society when he was questioned by the Cardinal about looking through his telescope and the Copernican Theory. Galileo supposedly said to the Cardinal, "those of you who might misread the stars...might also misread the heavens too!"

Take care Shawn

and tight lines

gene
www.eugenemacri.com

"whoa" is right... I guess I admire your passion Gene, but as someone who admits to being "totally clueless of what is really happening in the world" as you so delicately put it, I can tell you that your ranting does not inspire any sympathy for your positions, at least from me... if anything it undermines any legitimate arguments you may have... do yourself a favor and dial it down a bit before your meeting with the Maryland Coalition to Save the Brook Trout

As someone who respects both Gene and Shawn I do hope that everything can return to a less personal level and tone here. I recently saw a forum closed down when things became too inflammatory. Although, as one can see from my early posts that I am very concerned about global warming and that I despise the efforts of the current administration to hide or discredit ideas contrary to their agenda, I enjoyed reading Shawn's ideas because they get me to examine my own more rigorously. I'm squarely in Gene's camp, but I am glad to have any intelligent counter arguments presented that may get me to rethink my own assumptions. I'm not sure Shawn necessarily has a strong agenda all the time; sometimes, I believe, he enjoys playing devil's advocate--which doesn't make him the devil. In fact a devil's advocate can play a very positive role in determining the strength of an argument.

I'm a keepin' my head down on this one, guys...I blew a few too many arteries on the last one...

...at least until further notice.

Jonathon

I'm way too busy this week to read the whole exchange above, but I hope it's resolved peacefully, since I didn't program a "lock topic" feature into this forum. :-P

Skimming it, I noticed Shawn said he's not sure where to read up on the right-wing propaganda machine's positions. That's understandable -- most of their audience doesn't read, so they focus more on TV. They even have their own major news network!

Global Warming. The topic itself is self serving. As opinions and tempers flare I can feel the heet rising.

you guys remeber the last board that got closed down????? Do you remeber why????? anyone?????

come on guys, keep it civil.

I don't know how well the title of this article reflects its contents, but it does a decent job of outlining some of the political complexities:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/politics/5170441.html

And the follow-up coverage of Bush's actual speech:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070928/pl_nm/climate_usa_dc

-Shawn

Here's what the world thinks of George Bush's Climate Speech and Conference:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/sep/29/usnews.climatechange


tight lines and lots of air conditioning cause it's going to get hot!


gene
www.eugenemacri.com

The Worst Day of Fishing is Better than the Finest Day of Work!

Ted Trueblood

No joke.. you sound like another left wing moon bat whose seething hatred of Bush does not allow you to see things objectively.

The conservative approach would seem to be: assume there's global warming, assume we're the cause, and try to change it. If that assumption proves correct, we've done good; it that assumption proves wrong, we've made a valiant effort. I, for one, hope we are the cause, because then we may be able to slow the warming. Given the choice of an inoperable brain tumor and an operable brain tumor, I'd choose the latter.

Gene writes -

"Your head is basically up your ass as far as I am concerned because your letter reads like the talking point from the Republican Party. Gore is not right on everything but your argument that there are no objective scientists who are global warming experts is also total bullshit."

Wow! talk about frustration and angst! Lighten up Mr. Macri. Aren't you the fellow who writes that Big Spring in Newville is a "world class fishery"? In what century? You mention in a paper "Flyfisherman magazine rightly called it perhaps the greatest brook trout stream in the world." I'm just a recreational fly fisher with absolutely no scientific training. I just don't see how, or why, Flyfisherman magazine would say something like that. The "Ditch" appears to have far fewer, and far smaller, trout since the closure of the hatchery. I used to see a fairly good number of 11" - 15" wild brookies in the Ditch and the backwater adjacent to the outflow of the hatchery. Now the water volume is significantly reduced. Big Spring is at best worth a day trip to say you have seen, and fished it, and anyone who would consider driving there from afar based on your glowing comments would be quite disappointed. The water below the bridge is very shallow and seemingly almost totally barren of mayflies and other aquatic insect life save scuds.

I never saw a fishing forum where a thread had gotten this heated where it wasn't locked. It is one thing to disagree with someone concerning your viewpoint and others viewpoints but it's entirely different when you start verbally assaulting someone with crass epitaphs.