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3. Grannoms, Page 2

That looks good, and I can see where it could be a trigger. I purchased some gray "EP fibers" several years ago in the fly shop, and have had great success using them as the subsurface wing for my Albertae emergers to winging for my small BWO's that makes it simple to weave through the middle of them, and pull them up as wings. I include them in my Comparadun wing to provide the gray color, the wet look sparkle effect. And they would work well as the wings and veil effect for caddis pupa. Think I will go tie one.

Eric - degree of color, particularly of the abdomen, and the width of the plural area are going to be individual characters, not species specific. The plural area is highly membranous. It is designed to expand and contract to fit the critters needs - expanded with eggs, contracted without - expanded with a breath contracted without? I doubt expansion from breathing is obvious to us but who knows. Expansion with eggs is very obvious.

The subapical lobe size is one of those relative things in keys. Not all that useful for folks who don't have experience with the range of variability within the genus and a species. One should try hard not to use characters based on relative differences but sometimes it cannot be avoided. Brachycentrus males are difficult and I find the females pretty much indistinguishable. I can readily separate the western species but don't have enough experience with the eastern females to feel confident. In general the females of North American caddis are poorly known. It is a shame that more folks don't collect males and females so that better associations could be worked out for the future.

That is exactly why I was not comfortable saying that what I have is B. solomoni. Here is another adult that had been out for a while (not sure how long). I cut the starboard side wings so the abdomen is visible. I guess I should have said that I collected these from the Yellow Breeches.

This specimen is a female with eggs still present

I've seen patterns with a green ball at the end of the abdomen. I'm assuming this is to mimic the extruded eggs, ready to be dropped. Any comments on these patterns? Some use them as a "secret weapon" for picky fish, or for the egg laying periods.

Most commercial patterns use shades of green that make them more attractor patterns than imitative. The eggs I see hanging from Grannoms out West range from forest green to almost black. What are the colors of your eastern varieties?

For the Grannom, green.

Ah! the Bruce & Tony treatment...:)LOL

What shade? Do they match the flies you mentioned? As for use, I don't mess with them on dry flies but do throw a ball of matching dubbing on some of the divers I use. Whether they work better for me than those without is still before the jury (and it's been out quite awhile):).

BTW Eric, do you remember the color of the pharate's wing pads? Were they the color of the wings we are seeing or did they appear much darker under compression?

Kurt, I actually don't know. I've observed various egg masses, and they have varied in color, but some were for caddis I could not identify. I actually wasn't being facetious, just as accurate as I could be, given my limited knowledge.

For example, here's a bit from one journal entry for late May on the Letort: "Noticed some larger 14?? tan caddis with green body. Pretty patterned wing. Long antenna. Green egg mass." Perhaps Eric will have some idea, but I was clueless as to what this might be.

No problem, Louis. Sorry for the misinterpretation. I thought some of our poking had moved over from the other thread.:)

Your mention of the stream log (and their limitations) illustrates the value of what we're doing here. Many times over the years I've gone back to fish a stream I haven't fished in awhile with flies tied from memory refreshed by stream log. Often, they weren't even close...:)LOL Now when you guys find interesting critters you can take them to Eric for photos we can muse over all Winter.;) Even if we can't decide what they are we'll sure have better models to fashion flies from than the typical terse log entry & fickle memory.

They were only slightly darker.

Eric is mostly clueless but maybe a Limnephillid? Possibly Limnephilus rhombicus sorry I don't have a photo for the adult but here is one http://bugguide.net/node/view/190882/bgimage

Edit- I re-read your post Louis, and those Limnephilids are probably a little bigger than a #14. so it could possibly be Neophylax, but they may be a little smaller than #14. So like I stated before Eric is pretty much clueless...

I have never noted Eastern Grannoms diving to lay eggs.
I see them fluttering on the surface (like stoneflies) and then rising back into the air. I have also seen small browns jump out of the water to take them after they are airborn. I never checked if they had egg sacks during this behavior. A "dry fly" skittered works.

Do the Eastern Dark Grannoms dive to lay their eggs?
I certainly have patterns for that, but I never really thought about whether they were taking my pattern as "divers" or pupa.
What are your thoughts?

Dick Probst states that the Western Grannoms lay their eggs on the surface as well.

Eric, and others: After my recent grannom fishing, I was talking with a buddy who practically lives on the river in question. He told me that the grannoms were about over, but that the "black caddis" was still hatching strong. I gave him one of those, "what kind of B.S. is this" looks, and he told me that a local fly shop owner who has been around the river forever has been telling him for years that the "black caddis" comes after the grannom. Until this year my buddy had dismissed it, holding that the bugs were all grannoms, but he said he did some close comparisons and that he's convinced that they are two different bugs. According to him in most years there is a lull between the two hatches, but this year they are overlapping. He said the black caddis is smaller, a size 16, and darker, but that the two look very similar. The grannom he said has a more tannish wing when it hatches, that darkens to a grey. The black caddis wings, according to him darken to a more blackish color. Any thoughts on this? What might the "black caddis" be? My buddy said it ultimately doesn't matter in terms of fishing as this is the first strong hatch of the year and the fish, hungry after a long winter, and not having been hooked all season already, seem to take 14's or 16's equally well. Though he did show me some 16's he had been using recently. Oh, he's aware that the males and females may differ in size. Other than leading me to tie some 16's for later in the hatch, this won't change my behavior a lot, but I'm curious.

I think Spence is right about this. I seem to remember other threads were Gonzo commented on this as well (including a lament on the misuse of the common name Black caddis). Still Grannom, just a different species if I remember right.

Louis -

Somehow the following from earlier in the thread slipped through without comment.


It's the same out here. While it's impossible to know for sure why any fish takes any fly, odds are pretty good that it's taken for a cased larva.

Years ago, one of the most popular flies out here was a Zug Bug with a short olive/green marabou tail instead of the peacock sword. I began to leave off the wingcase after finding it worked just as well if not better that way. The fish chewed them off, and being lazy I'd just leave the fly on if it kept working, which it did... It's really just a simplified version of my Reversed Peeker Nymph tied with peacock instead of trimmed deer hair. It's a "secret weapon" when tied with a very short, stubby flo. lime tail. Shhh! Don't tell anybody...:)

I won't!! My lips are sealed.

:)