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Lateral view of a Male Baetis (Baetidae) (Blue-Winged Olive) Mayfly Dun from Mystery Creek #43 in New York
Blue-winged Olives
Baetis

Tiny Baetis mayflies are perhaps the most commonly encountered and imitated by anglers on all American trout streams due to their great abundance, widespread distribution, and trout-friendly emergence habits.

Lateral view of a Onocosmoecus (Limnephilidae) (Great Late-Summer Sedge) Caddisfly Larva from the Yakima River in Washington
This specimen keys pretty easily to Onocosmoecus, and it closely resembles a specimen from Alaska which caddis expert Dave Ruiter recognized as this genus. As with that specimen, the only species in the genus documented in this area is Onocosmoecus unicolor, but Dave suggested for that specimen that there might be multiple not-yet-distinguished species under the unicolor umbrella and it would be best to stick with the genus-level ID. I'm doing the same for this one.
27" brown trout, my largest ever. It was the sub-dominant fish in its pool. After this, I hooked the bigger one, but I couldn't land it.
Troutnut is a project started in 2003 by salmonid ecologist Jason "Troutnut" Neuswanger to help anglers and fly tyers unabashedly embrace the entomological side of the sport. Learn more about Troutnut or support the project for an enhanced experience here.

Red_green_h
Red_green_h's profile picture
New Mexico

Posts: 64
Red_green_h on Jan 15, 2020January 15th, 2020, 11:39 am EST
What are the differences between WF and DT? Does anyone prefer one over the other? Does one cast better or farther than the other? Perform better? Roll cast better? Etc.
Partsman
Partsman's profile picture
bancroft michigan

Posts: 321
Partsman on Jan 16, 2020January 16th, 2020, 11:14 am EST
Red green, weight forward lines are for a simple way of putting it a single line that is taperd at the tip or head section that tapers up to a belly and then to the running section. The double taper essentially has the same taper at both ends of the line. That's the simple explaination, but after that lines get much more technical, I have some dt,s I use on my fiberglass rods. They are usally taperd for soft delieveries of dry flies now a days. Weight forward lines can get confusing because some lines are made for dry work, while others for streamers and wets, and then some for nymphs. Aslo some wt lines are 1/2 size heavy to load fast rods. I suggest going to north American fly fishers website, there are some good reads on lines. The right line can a big difference in the performance of your rod.
Mike
Wbranch
Wbranch's profile picture
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2635
Wbranch on Jan 17, 2020January 17th, 2020, 12:29 pm EST
One advantage to a double taper line is after one end gets beat up and starts to sink you can reverse it and start all over again with a new line.

Years ago the philosophy was use a DT for line presentations and difficult dry fly work. Use WF lines for nymphing, streamers, bass bugs. Over the last twenty or so years line manufacturers have honed there line making skills and taper formulas so no you can buy a WF floating line and, if your casting skills are at least beyond beginner, you will most likely be able to get the same presentation as you would of with a DT floater.

I have over a dozen fly lines and all but one are weight forward. I use one Cortland 444 DT #4 on a very light Sage 9' #4 rod and it reminds me of fishing with cane.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
Red_green_h
Red_green_h's profile picture
New Mexico

Posts: 64
Red_green_h on Jan 18, 2020January 18th, 2020, 6:13 am EST
I just bought a Cortland 444 DT #4 for my 8' #4 just because it was half off. Another question is when is it appropriate for using sinking or intermediate lines? In my way of thinking I would think using a sinking line would be best for using in a deep lake to get to some deeper fish. Please correct me if I'm wrong but if one wanted to fish different water columns in a river does one need a sinking line or maybe just a sink tip or maybe just add some more split shot? Or does it just depend on how deep the river is and how fast it's flowing? The more I go out fly fishing and the more I get skunked the more it's forcing me to think about these things if I want to catch fish.
Wbranch
Wbranch's profile picture
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2635
Wbranch on Jan 19, 2020January 19th, 2020, 11:44 am EST
Red_green wrote;

Please correct me if I'm wrong but if one wanted to fish different water columns in a river does one need a sinking line or maybe just a sink tip or maybe just add some more split shot? Or does it just depend on how deep the river is and how fast it's flowing?


Very good questions. Some fly fishers, but I'm not one of them, will carry an extra spool for their fly reel. Typically that spool will be a sink tip fly line. Then if the angler wants to fish streamers or maybe slow fish nymphs in a deeper pool he can re-rig the rod with the sink tip line.

I hate carrying an extra spool and re-rigging on the river. But I'm just a lazy guy and don't want to get into doing that. I decided if I wanted to fish streamers and didn't want to use a sink tip line I would always use weighted streamers then the fly weight would sink the fly to the depth I wanted to fish.

If I'm going to fish nymphs I would never use a sink tip line unless I was in a boat and in a lake. One comment that needs mentioning it is much easier to overhead cast a sink tip line than a line weighted with split shot. As a matter of fact I would never advise you to overhead cast when using split shot. If your timing is off or there is a strong gust of wind it could screw up your cast and have the split shot hit the rod blank which can very easily break the rod. I have done that. When I was in my 20's and not so smart I tried casting overhead with shot and broke a Fenwick fiber glass fly rod cleanly into two pieces!

When I nymph in a stream or river I much prefer to use a weighted nymph or if water is very fast and deep then I will pinch on one or two split shot. I normally use "B" or "BB" size. Sometimes I will use a 3/0 shot if the water is high, fast, and off color.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
Red_green_h
Red_green_h's profile picture
New Mexico

Posts: 64
Red_green_h on Jan 20, 2020January 20th, 2020, 12:59 am EST
Wbranch

That is great advice. I definitely fall into that "lazy" category. By weighted nymph do you mean a BH nymph? And when you do put split shot on what's the closest you put it on in regards to the fly? Is it with or without an indicator?
Wbranch
Wbranch's profile picture
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2635
Wbranch on Jan 20, 2020January 20th, 2020, 11:27 am EST
Red_green,

That is great advice. I definitely fall into that "lazy" category. By weighted nymph do you mean a BH nymph? And when you do put split shot on what's the closest you put it on in regards to the fly? Is it with or without an indicator?


Come out to PA for five days in May and we'll go to my cabin on a famous wild trout stream and I will mentor you. You can pick my brain for five days and go home with a heck of a lot more knowledge about trout than when you arrived.

Actually by "weighted" I meant lead wire on the hook shank before tying the flies. But since it is not always easy to find nymphs tied in that fashion you can use BH nymphs. I've never done a study of whether the BH is any better than a plain nymph. But I bet it is easily as good. Just like guys are tying "hot spots" on nymphs now to get more attention from the trout beads glitter a little and look just different enough from the thousands of nymphs in the drift that a trout may perhaps single it out and eat it. Every little bit helps.

The "when to put split shot on" is difficult to answer. If your unweighted nymph is not getting down to the bottom and you are pretty sure there is no mayfly emergence underway where nymphs might be throughout the water column then that is when I might put on a split shot.

I never use an indicator when nymphing for non-migratory trout because I'm old enough to have learned to nymph effectively without a bobber. However when I fish for steelhead and nymph or bead I always use an indicator. Not so much to signal a strike but to minimize getting snagged on the shale bottoms of the streams I fish in PA and OH.

Sometimes it is much easier to get a drag free drift without an indicator. When you use an indicator you should always be seeing how it is floating and be prepared to mend it up, or down, stream to slow it down if it is dragging.

The rule of thumb for indicator placement is typically 1.5 times the depth of the moving water. So if the water is 3' deep place the indicator 4.5' from the point fly. That being said if you are fishing a dead slow pool with little current you probably shouldn't place the indicator any higher than the water is deep so you don't get snagged.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
Red_green_h
Red_green_h's profile picture
New Mexico

Posts: 64
Red_green_h on Jan 21, 2020January 21st, 2020, 2:51 am EST
Come out to PA for five days in May and we'll go to my cabin on a famous wild trout stream and I will mentor you. You can pick my brain for five days and go home with a heck of a lot more knowledge about trout than when you arrived.


That is sure is a generous offer and one I'd love to take you up on, however my wife has been on my case for years to take the kids to Disney Land and I've been putting it off so imagine her surprise if I told her I was heading off to Pennsylvania to fish for a week...but if I did do it she might ask for a divorce which would technically give me more time to fish...but then again when she gets half of everything she'll go after my fishing gear just to spite so that might not be a good idea after all.

In the mean time I'm just gonna have to glean as much off of the fly fishers on this forum as I can until I can start fishing again here in another month or so. The advice and instruction I've received have been invaluable. I've also learned quite a bit just by going out there. I'm just trying to put it all together. So thank you for putting up with my rookie questions in the past and the ones to come!!!
Wbranch
Wbranch's profile picture
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2635
Wbranch on Jan 21, 2020January 21st, 2020, 10:32 am EST
Any time
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
BoulderWork
Posts: 29
BoulderWork on Jan 22, 2020January 22nd, 2020, 10:27 pm EST
Red_green_h,

Good early morning.

In response to "What are the differences between WF and DT? Does anyone prefer one over the other? Does one cast better or farther than the other? Perform better? Roll cast better? Etc."

(1) I really found this discussion and overview quite informative:

https://www.tridentflyfishing.com/blog/fly-line-shootout-review-buyers-guide/

(2) I try to keep it simple. Double Tapers are perfect for gentle presentations where stealth is imperative. Nymphing with this type line is fine for very close presentations, but not efficient for longer distance presentation. I would use this line for small to mid-size nymphs and minimal weight presentation and lighter leaders. This line is not efficient for heavy weighted rigs.

(3) I prefer Double Tapers for roll casting Small to Medium sized dry flies that are wind resistant. (Just an FYI, big fan of Wulff Triangle Taper and product line for various needs...).

(4) What other posters are not stating is that you just experiment and find your preference. The posters here have multiple decades of experience.

Some other resources I would recommend is Joe Humphrey books that discuss leader design, and presentation dynamics for dry fly, wet fly, streams and nymphs. George Daniel has books on streamers and nymphs. Also check out website https://troutbitten.com

Key elements to consider is water flow dynamics as well.

BoulderWork



Wbranch
Wbranch's profile picture
York & Starlight PA

Posts: 2635
Wbranch on Jan 25, 2020January 25th, 2020, 3:11 pm EST
Hello BoulderWork,

How are you doing? Did you go to the Guide's school on the Missouri?
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
BoulderWork
Posts: 29
BoulderWork on Jan 26, 2020January 26th, 2020, 1:00 am EST
Red_green_h,

Good early morning.

In response to "..... Another question is when is it appropriate for using sinking or intermediate lines? ....".

(1) Weighted flies, weighted leaders, shooting heads, sinking tips, etc. are all ways to combat water flow dynamics and to also attempt to keep the fly imitation in the feeding zone. Once again, books mentioned above are great resources. I also would recommend learning (by on the water experience) and reading to increase your success. I am big fan of three additional books to complement your pursuit:

(a) Tactics on Trout Author: Ray Ovington. This a masterpiece discussion on how to wade, cast and fish of 33 different kinds of trout pools.

(b) Reading Trout Streams An ORVIS Guide: Tom Rosenbauer. Complete guide to where trout live and feed.

(c) Big Trout (How and Where to Target Trophies): Bernie Taylor. Excellent reference.

(2) Experiment and find your preference. Find the key of keeping the fly imitation in the zone to increase success.



Martinlf
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Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 3047
Martinlf on Feb 4, 2020February 4th, 2020, 12:54 pm EST
if I did do it she might ask for a divorce which would technically give me more time to fish...


That reminds me of a call I got from my buddy John Dunn a few years back. He said that cicadas were hatching on our stream, and that big trout had gotten just silly, eating them all day. I told him I was steaming wallpaper off the dining room, a project my wife had been after me about for years, and that if I left to fish, she'd divorce me. His response,

"It's worth a divorce."

You can guess what I did.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell

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