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Artistic view of a Male Pteronarcys californica (Pteronarcyidae) (Giant Salmonfly) Stonefly Adult from the Gallatin River in Montana
Salmonflies
Pteronarcys californica

The giant Salmonflies of the Western mountains are legendary for their proclivity to elicit consistent dry-fly action and ferocious strikes.

Dorsal view of a Setvena wahkeena (Perlodidae) (Wahkeena Springfly) Stonefly Nymph from Mystery Creek #199 in Washington
As far as I can tell, this species has only previously been reported from one site in Oregon along the Columbia gorge. However, the key characteristics are fairly unmistakable in all except for one minor detail:
— 4 small yellow spots on frons visible in photos
— Narrow occipital spinule row curves forward (but doesn’t quite meet on stem of ecdysial suture, as it's supposed to in this species)
— Short spinules on anterior margin of front legs
— Short rposterior row of blunt spinules on abdominal tergae, rather than elongated spinules dorsally
I caught several of these mature nymphs in the fishless, tiny headwaters of a creek high in the Wenatchee Mountains.
27" brown trout, my largest ever. It was the sub-dominant fish in its pool. After this, I hooked the bigger one, but I couldn't land it.
Troutnut is a project started in 2003 by salmonid ecologist Jason "Troutnut" Neuswanger to help anglers and fly tyers unabashedly embrace the entomological side of the sport. Learn more about Troutnut or support the project for an enhanced experience here.

Kinzua has attached these 3 pictures to aid in identification. The message is below.
Little lady
Little lady_2
Boy friend
Kinzua
W. PA

Posts: 20
Kinzua on Oct 5, 2009October 5th, 2009, 11:52 am EDT
Does anyone know the name of this little girl? Found in western PA yesterday, 10/4. Body size ~4mm. Also included a picture of her friend.
Softhackle
Softhackle's profile picture
Wellsville, NY

Posts: 540
Softhackle on Oct 6, 2009October 6th, 2009, 3:29 am EDT
Not really sure, so I'll guess in the Heptagenia family. When did you find them, and what were the area's water characteristics?

Mark
"I have the highest respect for the skilled wet-fly fisherman, as he has mastered an art of very great difficulty." Edward R. Hewitt

Flymphs, Soft-hackles and Spiders: http://www.troutnut.com/libstudio/FS&S/index.html
GONZO
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
GONZO on Oct 6, 2009October 6th, 2009, 4:31 am EDT
Kinzua,

These are baetids, but it's difficult to say much beyond that.
Softhackle
Softhackle's profile picture
Wellsville, NY

Posts: 540
Softhackle on Oct 6, 2009October 6th, 2009, 4:41 am EDT
Thanks, Gonzo, from me too!

Mark
"I have the highest respect for the skilled wet-fly fisherman, as he has mastered an art of very great difficulty." Edward R. Hewitt

Flymphs, Soft-hackles and Spiders: http://www.troutnut.com/libstudio/FS&S/index.html
Kinzua
W. PA

Posts: 20
Kinzua on Oct 6, 2009October 6th, 2009, 11:23 am EDT
Gonzo,
Thanks, I suspected baetis, but haven't seen one of this yellowish color. Although a #24, the fish were eating them. Other than a few mystacides, this was the only other bug on the menu.

John
GONZO
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
GONZO on Oct 6, 2009October 6th, 2009, 4:16 pm EDT
Sorry, John, I seem to have created a bit of confusion with the term "baetid." That's a family identification--a member of the family Baetidae. I rather doubt that these are Baetis (the genus). Although I can't confidently suggest a genus-level ID, they might be something in Centroptilum or Procloeon. Many of the species in those genera have yellowish or yellowish white bodies with somewhat similar markings. Some of the Centroptilum or Procloeon males also have a low profile or elliptical shape to their turbinate eyes, similar to your male specimen.

Because most fly fishers tend to use terms like "BWOs" or "olives" when referring to any of the little members of the Baetidae, we often get the impression that most baetids have olive bodies. Many baetids have yellowish, yellowish orange, or brownish bodies. A few of the common trout stream species, like Baetis tricaudatus or Acentrella turbida, do tend to have olive or olive-brown bodies. These are often pictured in fly-fishing books, and that further contributes to our impressions about color (and identification).

In the case of baetid spinners, the male body colors are sometimes quite different than the female body colors. Many male spinners in this family (including some common Baetis species) have translucent whitish abdomens with brownish tips--what fly fishers sometimes call the "Jenny spinner" coloration.

I hope that helps. Baetidae is a very difficult and confusing family-- for fly fishers and entomologists alike. :)
JAD
JAD's profile picture
Alexandria Pa

Posts: 362
JAD on Oct 7, 2009October 7th, 2009, 1:17 am EDT
That's what I like ,ask a question and get a complete answer. Well done Lloyd,that's probably why Louis is smarter than me (He hangs around with you)

We old guys call that fly ,A summer Sulphur---or to go even further back to the Chauncy Lively days the Lemon and gray.

:) John

They fasten red (crimson red) wool around a hook, and fix onto the wool two feathers which grow under a cock’s wattles, and which in colour are like wax.
Radcliffe's Fishing from the Earliest Times,
GONZO
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
GONZO on Oct 7, 2009October 7th, 2009, 5:35 am EDT
You're too modest, John (JAD). When he's not in a teasing mood, Louis would be the first to say how much he has learned from fishing with you. Summer Sulphur is a better name for John's (Kinzua's) little lady than BWO, but I am partial to Little Lemon and Gray. And you already know how much I admired Chauncy Lively.
Martinlf
Martinlf's profile picture
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 3047
Martinlf on Oct 7, 2009October 7th, 2009, 8:59 am EDT
Gonzo's right. Most of the benefit of fishing with John has gone to me, in ways too numerous to count. But I have learned so much from Lloyd too. Between the two of them, they may make a fisherman of me yet. I'm headed up to the J. very soon, to continue my lessons. I just hope John's there, and the fish are rising.
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
Flyfishdelt
Raleigh

Posts: 1
Flyfishdelt on Oct 7, 2009October 7th, 2009, 9:29 am EDT
Thanks for the question and answers, I spent some time up in Jefferson, NC the last week of Sept/09. These ladies were everywhere and I had no idea what they were.(no mathing pattern either)
Steve
Kinzua
W. PA

Posts: 20
Kinzua on Oct 7, 2009October 7th, 2009, 12:04 pm EDT
JAD,
Way back when, I looked forward to the monthly Chauncy Lively fly tying article in the PA Angler magazine. He was a very innovative tyer and excellent writer. Did he do one on the Little Lemon and Gray? I wish whoever (PFBC?) has the rights to his articles would publish them all in a book - I'd buy two.

Gonzo,
I'll have to keep an eye out for the spinners.

John
JAD
JAD's profile picture
Alexandria Pa

Posts: 362
JAD on Oct 7, 2009October 7th, 2009, 12:56 pm EDT
Ah what fun I just had, I was smart enough to cut Mr Lively articles out and past them together when I was younger.I can't find a article about the lemon and gray from Chauncy but I did find one from Mr Bob Miller who IMHO is a very close second. In case your interested the lemon and gray pattern calls for a 24 hook with Griz tail and hackle.

Sorry I think I hijacked the thread that's not like Me :) I got carried AWAY-----

Sing along with me.

Thanks for the memories

JAD

They fasten red (crimson red) wool around a hook, and fix onto the wool two feathers which grow under a cock’s wattles, and which in colour are like wax.
Radcliffe's Fishing from the Earliest Times,
GONZO
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
GONZO on Oct 7, 2009October 7th, 2009, 2:46 pm EDT
John and John,

I, too, have a small collection of Chauncy's old articles, and I wish I had them all. Whenever I look at them, they take me back to a time when I would flip through the pages of the PA Angler in eager anticipation of Chauncy's latest offering. I was never disappointed and was always inspired to try to tie such flies. In some ways, those articles are even more impressive today. I'm struck by how much of our recent fly-tying innovation has merely been catching up to where Chauncy was more than 40 years ago.

A while back, there was a book called, I believe, Chauncy Lively's Flybox. I haven't read it, preferring the direct memories evoked by the original articles, but it might be worth tracking down.

Oldredbarn
Oldredbarn's profile picture
Novi, MI

Posts: 2600
Oldredbarn on Oct 8, 2009October 8th, 2009, 3:05 am EDT
GONZO,

I have an autographed copy of, "Chauncy Lively's Flybox". It is well worth trying to find. I had the chance to chat with him in the late 90's at the Angler's of the Au Sable's tenth anniversary that was held in Gaylord MI. He had a cottage on the North Breanch of the Au Sable. He seemed like a really nice guy and willing to share with you his ideas. He seemed interested in your conversation and curious about your observations...I can't remember what we actually spoke about...Maybe I have it tucked away in a fishing journal somewhere.

It was kind of like the time I was in Boston in 1975 with a friend and we went to a Tennessee Williams play and he was in the audience. I waited out in the lobby to try to speak with him and he walked a few feet away and I couldn't come up with something to say...He just walked by.

In Chauncy's book he has a unique process for tying on spinner wings. It may be in one of those articles you have of his. He tied on a knotted/looped piece of mono and wrapped the hackle parachute style below this knot. He would then pull the loop down over the wrapped hackle and it would form two separate wings on either side of the shank. You would have to see it and in his book he has step by step photos.

I think that the book has long been out of print and I also think it was a small publisher as well. I'm at the office and don't have it handy, but if you are interested just shoot me an email and I'll get you the info. In Michigan fly shops in the early 90's it was available and I remember seeing it around. There is a photo sequence for each fly and a page long article about the fly.

I actually thought, at one time, that I had lost my copy. I couldn't find it for awhile and tried to buy it again up around Grayling but couldn't find it. I was hassling some of my fishing friends to check and re-check to see if I had lent it to them. Turns out that I had put it in a box when we moved to a new house. These boxes were stacked in the basement and when I got around to finishing the basement I emptied these boxes and found it.

Us Michigan guys...Au Sable river guys...are rather fond of the "Pennsylvania Boys". Just between you and I, he-he, we love to hassle the Ohioians & those from Chicago that fish the Au Sable, but if we know a guy is from Pennsylvania and we run in to him up there, we are trying to pick his brain or get him to go fishing with us.

A few years back I ran in to a group of guys at Gates' Au Sable Lodge at breakfast that were from PA. I had walked in and all the tables were taken and sat myself down at the end of a long table. These guys walked in and were looking around for a place to sit and I told them to join me. We hit it off and I told them of a few places they should check out and ran in to them one night in one of my favorite spots. After dark we met up at the parking area and they shared some PA beers with me and we shot-the-shit about the old guard (Chauncey, Marinaro, Fox, etc...)and they told me a little about the fishery back home.

These guys had read about the river in, I think, that Eastern fly fishing mag and decided on a road trip. They had done their research and fit right in up there. Serious anglers.

Anyway!

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
Oldredbarn
Oldredbarn's profile picture
Novi, MI

Posts: 2600
Oldredbarn on Oct 8, 2009October 8th, 2009, 3:19 am EDT
Oops! I forgot to add...we like the Pennsylvania Boys here in Michigan except for "Syd the Kid" and the hockey team in Pittsburgh! He's actually a Canuck anyway...My second obsession is the ice hockey, eh! The "Oldredbarn" tag is a reference to the Olympia Stadium that use to stand in Detroit on Grand River when I was younger...It was the house that Gordie Howe built. I also saw Tommy Hearns' first two pro fights in there in the late 70's..."I grow old, I grow old...I will wear my trousers rolled and walk upon the beach"....etc, etc.

Just wanted to clear this up.

Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively

"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
GONZO
Site Editor
"Bear Swamp," PA

Posts: 1681
GONZO on Oct 8, 2009October 8th, 2009, 12:55 pm EDT
Thanks, Spence, for your remembrance of a childhood fly-tying hero, the kind words about "those Pennsylvania boys," and the Eliot.

"...Time to turn back and descend the stair,
with a bald spot in the middle of my hair...."
Lastchance
Portage, PA

Posts: 437
Lastchance on Oct 8, 2009October 8th, 2009, 1:09 pm EDT
I'm very happy this post was made because I saw the same fly about a week ago and couldn't identify it. So, is it suffice to call it a yellowish BWO?
Bruce

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