1. Troutnut Forum
›
2. Fly Fishing
›
3. Another BWO Discussion, Page 2

Like throwing a caddis at a 30 inch bull trout (even if you didn't know what it was)?

Deep nymphs for baetids? Depends on what's happening. If the hatch sequence is on (wave activity - emergents, duns, spinners) the fish are usually surface oriented. Will deep nymphs still work? Probably at times... As well as patterns near the surface? Perhaps at times... But with the water boiling I think most of us would prefer to fish where they are.

However, tremendous fishing can be had both before and after the frenzy with a myriad of small patterns fished deep. They do a good job of fooling fish feeding on both staging nymphs and those engaged in behavioral drift. The latter behavior can often provide tremendous fishing. I've enjoyed countless evenings on Fall River over the years drifting #16 to #20 nymphs under an indicator (for depth control) between the weed lines for 16" to 20" rainbows. Late October and early November can be awesome! Can't wait... :)

Bruce...You're awful cranky these days! What's up...Give Tony a call and he'll send you a dozen or two. :)

I don't feel cranky, Spence. Sometimes, I get thoughts. They're not always good thoughts, but they're thoughts nonetheless. Eric and Tony always tell me to quit reading. But, I can't help it. Fly fishing is my mistress.
Bruce

Yes! Another thing you "western" boys have shown me is float the tiny nymph behind a good dry that will float both...Give them the choice. The nymph will sink just below the surface for all those fish who like to chase nymphs as they emerge. A guy showed this to me for the first time on DePuy's Spring Creek in 1991.

Kurt. I wish we had more weeds in the Au Sable! The tiny guys, I anoka, like to crawl up them and when they decide its time to go, they just let go and off they drift. The smallish Brooks like to station just below the weeds for an easy meal.



You know I'm just yanking your chain, right? If I were there I'd dunk you under just to wash away your sins. :) You would pop-up a new man!

I want to make a Sheetz run for Hot Dogs, with cheese and mayo for you and the Spencer Special! We'll wash them down with a couple of Tony's Yuenglings and watch him tie up something on a size 30 hook and use 10x tippet.

I'm loading the truck now!


Spence

Don't worry, Spence, I'm not that fragile. I take no offense. Hopefully, in the coming year I can go diving in your area.
Bruce

Bruce,

Compared to your Little J, you could wade the Au Sable walking on your hands! :)

Spence

In my experience, the largest number of nymphs found in the drift will occur just before and during a hatch.For here:

< />

...in the Fall, I use nymphs #18 - #22, fished deep - in Olive, Tan, Brown, Lt. Olive, Brown/Olive, Gray and Black. All have black wing cases because when Baetis/BWO are most active and preparing to hatch, their wing cases ARE black.The crappier the weather, the better...

< />

FIVE BRIDGES BAETIS (Olive)...

Whoever wrote that piece requires more time on the water...


PT/TB

I took this thread to be talking about the really tiny autumn Baetids, sized 24/26. Such tiny hooks are usually used closer to the surface rather than what we might normally "deep nymph" with, as is stated in the OP. Not that it isn't done, but I've never done that.

I've not used Baetis nymphs smaller than #22 (Japanese standard), except right at or under the surface. For most Baetis nymphing I've used a #16 to #20. Guess I've never tried to deep nymph with a #26 Baetis mimic. I've fished #20/22's deep under flat surfaces as I posted above, but that's no been as much a hatch-matching thing as just coping with extreme water conditions. Do you guys fish #24 or #26's deep during autumn Baetid emergences??

"Baetis and related nymphs range from size 14 down to 24. The most common are 16 to 20"

Western Mayfly Hatches-From the Rockies to the Pacific - Rick Hafele, Dave Hughes Pg. 43, 3rd. paragraph...


PT/TB

Ah...I re-read the OP. I was thinking Bruce was talking about the really tiny late summer into fall guys -the season you all are in now. I'm ready to move on now.

Yep, I was referring to the Fall Baetis. I stated "Fall" in my post.

We have been over this territory here on Troutnut before, but this is exactly why we have issues with calling mayflies by titles like, BWO, Sulpher, "Fall Baetis", etc.

Here in Michigan the "Fall Baetis" is but one fly and everyone understands this to mean Baetis brunneicolor (was once know as Baetis hiemalis). When this bug is listed on local hatch charts it is written as hook size 14/16. (For sake of not muddying the water here by arguing this...Lets just leave it at that).

Now if you are asking about the other Baetis that may be around during the Fall, then you are getting in to the tiny ones as well.

Semantics! :)

Now I'm going to muddy the waters a bit so sit down and open another beverage of choice...:)

Per Justin Leonard re B hiemalis (now B brunneicolor), "This species, the largest of the genus in Michigan, is notable for its late emergence season. During the emergence periods, air temperatures have dropped as low as 24 degrees F at night." He lists the emergence dates for this bug on the Au Sable as running from September 11-October 3.

Now. They have bunched this fella and renamed it with B brunneicolor...Leonard lists the original B brunneicolor as a nymph as 6.5-7.5 mm long, yet he lists the original B hiemalis nymph as running between 9-10 mm...Riddle me this?!

Spence

Notice I used "Baetids" -dodging the whole taxonomy thing.

Spence, I noticed you had said the fall "Baetis" were the largest of the year. I didn't remember those, or have never seen them. I Would have to go back to my journals -now in storage.

When I think fall "Baetids"/Olives/... I think of those tiny buggers that I actually prefer to ignore. Shame on me I know. :) Actually, if they ever presented great fishing opportunities for me they'd have stood out in my mind. So I don't know whether I should feel shamed or not. Also, for clarity, I consider "fall" as starting mid-August -it's a photoperiod thing.

The lumping occurred out here too, Spence. On Fall River our primary Fall baetid is now just considered a larger brood of B. tricaudatus. They go as big as 14. According to the latest ento findings, it's also the same critter as the little one you used to call B. vagans. Oh, well...:(

For those interested in this topic (or cross-eyed by it) the info provided in the hatch pages is very helpful in sorting all this out.

Paul,

Many of our western rivers are full of these biggest of the little guys and on some of them they provide the best dry fly fishing of the year. Especially the spring creeks. I dream of soft overcast days... Such weather can trigger tremendous hatches that will go on for hours. Two years ago I hit the magic and fished over rising fish for more than 6 hours! I've done similar many times in the past. The added bonus is that unlike the Summer sulfer ephemerellids that usually spend most of their time as emergers these big baetids will offer far more opportunities as duns and spinners floating along. Fishing these hatches isn't nearly as puzzling/frustrating as their pale Summer counterparts (usually)... :)

PlanetTrout -

Very nice flies! Thank you for your recent contributions. BTY - your Baetis nymphs intrigue me. Love the hook selection and the overall very slim silhouette. Curious about the trailing shucks, though.

I'm guessing the material choice for tails, and legs, are simply for durability? Rather than shucks.

Ah, perhaps... He mentioned that there are baetids in various instars always present in the Owens. Im sure that's true in most rivers with heavy populations of multiple species. I'm assuming that a stuck nymph would be far less mobile and thus possibly more attractive? These guys swim pretty good when healthy but are known to stop moving much in the middle of shedding. If just tails, makes one ponder the real benefits on flies that use this material allegedly for shuck imitation.

Yes the little one we use to call P anoka is multi-brooded and we see them in early June and then again in the Fall. The fishing can be mixed and depends, of course, on where you are fishing. I have fished them in the summer and the size of the fish aren't always so great...The smaller brooks love them. Probably a real important bug to their development.

Great dry fly fishing opportunity though.Kind of akin to how I imagine you may have felt when you were fishing some of your old mountain streams. Get out the 3-4 wt and and you usually had plenty of targets to cast to. Every so often a larger brook would appear and make your day. Better than hanging in the office. :)

During the fall though I've been in some situations where the larger fish are eating them. These are usually tough holding lies where the fish has all damn day to decide if he's eating or not...I had one fish that owned a hole behind some sweepers that would sip these all day long.

The water he was in was dead calm with the currents on either side of him...Keeping your fly in the center of his hole without it eventually getting ripped out of there was a real trick. Nothing more exasperating than watching a hog rise up to your size 24 fly at a snails pace...and you know you are just about to run out of time.

I've told the story here before about a time back in the 90's when I was taking a break in a screened in porch of an old log cabin and another angler came walking up the steps there from the river. It was in the middle of the day and he stopped to chat.

I listened to his fishing philosophy which basically was "big fly big fish", and how he didn't fish anything smaller than say a 14 and he was stretching it to say that. I pointed to a hundred or so little dinky olives on my screen and said that I had been having some fun with those. He squinted at them, shook his head, and said, "No way!"...

So Paul...Your inclination to ignore these little nasties is shared far and wide...In other words, you are not alone. They didn't earn the name, "Fishermen's Curse" by accident. :)

Mr Tim Neal will probably chime in here and suggest that I should be tossing a size 10 Madsen Skunk about during these hatches and forget these little toads! :)

Spence

Not quite. But using a nymph two sizes larger doesn't hurt success at all and you don't have to stop to dry your fly in between.I'm talking here about Fall fishing. The Madsen skunk would be a good alternative for the earlier hatches you mentioned.

Spence, fun read. Thanks.

However, we're supposed to be talking nymphs here! And fishing them "deep" at that. That was what the OP asked about.

As to P anoka dries and big fish, I've yet to have that opportunity. I don't ignore tiny flies across the board -my boxes contain midges and tricos. But no "olives" below a Japanese #22.

"Micro-nymphing" is a really effective ploy in flat water, common on many waters during late season. It's not a hatch-matching scenario as much as an "fish-filching" method.

Oh...Original post...Right...About that...Did Spence's ADD slide him off course again...It's weird how easily that happens and he a son of a navigator!?

Nymphs...I did say something somewhere about trailing a small nymph behind a floater...Maybe that was all I had and should of stopped while I was ahead. :)

Paul. I'm tempted to ask how things are going with you over there, but I'd be doing it again...How about a PM?

This time of year, on the upper Au Sable, the water is generally at its lowest for the year. Fishing really deep would be a different thing now as opposed to Spring. Hmmm...I got nothing...

Spence