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Baetis
Tiny Baetis mayflies are perhaps the most commonly encountered and imitated by anglers on all American trout streams due to their great abundance, widespread distribution, and trout-friendly emergence habits.
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Sayfu
Posts: 560
Posts: 560
Sayfu on Oct 10, 2013October 10th, 2013, 6:14 am EDT
There is rotary, and then there is the true rotary function. Palmering marabou that I also do for steelhead flies you want to go slooow, and manage the marabou back. I doubt the true rotary is of much use for this application. Regal has a less expensive vice, same quality, that does not rotate 360 degrees. And the post is right that quotes better vices for the huge sized hooks. There are better vices for those big hooks. For trout flies 1/0 to #20 I will say, the Regal is just very efficient. Pull out a hook in the range, and tie it. Mine, like I said, has been used for 40 yrs. I was a steelhead guide, and tied for clients as well. After the first year I had chips at the head, sent the vice back to Regal, and they re-did the head free, and sent a note along scolding me, and telling me to learn how to put a hook in the vice! I did, and the rest is history as they say.
Kschaefer3 on Oct 10, 2013October 10th, 2013, 7:21 am EDT
There is rotary, and then there is the true rotary function. Palmering marabou that I also do for steelhead flies you want to go slooow, and manage the marabou back. I doubt the true rotary is of much use for this application.
You obviously know a lot more than I do about tying, 40 yrs experience over 1.5.
However, I watched a dvd of Galloup tying his T&A rainbow pattern. This pattern is so simple, palmer two marabou plumes, wing with a third. Artculate, and repeat. Finish with a sparse wool head. I had never thought about wanting a true rotary before I saw him tie that fly. He ties in his marabou, brushes it back and starts cranking the vise, stopping every couple turns to brush the marabou back. It seems a much more efficient way than manually wrapping, although I can manually palmer marabou with relative ease. He does the same thing with schlappen on his sex dungeon. I am slow enough at tying that every little bit of time I can save would be great. Obviously just tying more would make me a faster tyer too.
Gutcutter on Oct 10, 2013October 10th, 2013, 7:59 am EDT
...What about the Renzetti and the Regal make them better for trout flies in your opinion?...
The Renzetti and the Regal have great "holding strength" on the common sized trout flies and small streamers, and are a joy to tie with.
The Dyna-King has a notch in the jaw for tying on heavy (thick) hooks for the really big flies (you can actually bend a 3/0 saltwater hook in the jaws) but the tip on the standard jaw is a little larger than I like for tying trout flies. The midge jaws accommodate standard trout flies very nicely (but still not as nice as the Regal or Renzetti).
The Dyna-King is true rotary and I palmer bunny strips, hackle and marabou easier with this function than by hand.
All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad.
-Robert Traver, Trout Madness
-Robert Traver, Trout Madness
Kschaefer3 on Oct 10, 2013October 10th, 2013, 8:24 am EDT
The Renzetti and the Regal have great "holding strength" on the common sized trout flies and small streamers, and are a joy to tie with.
The Dyna-King has a notch in the jaw for tying on heavy (thick) hooks for the really big flies (you can actually bend a 3/0 saltwater hook in the jaws) but the tip on the standard jaw is a little larger than I like for tying trout flies. The midge jaws accommodate standard trout flies very nicely (but still not as nice as the Regal or Renzetti).
The Dyna-King is true rotary and I palmer bunny strips, hackle and marabou easier with this function than by hand.
All of this is great to know. I can't wait to have a vise that actually holds my hook. It's hard to spin hair heads when the hook keeps popping out.
Thanks to all for the information! Now I need to head to the local shop and see if they'll let me play a bit before I buy.
Entoman on Oct 10, 2013October 10th, 2013, 10:13 am EDT
Kyle -
Then I would go with the Dyna-King as Tony suggested. It's got decent space behind the fly and nothing holds like 'em. Get the C-clamp! Models? The Trekker is the best buy. If money is no object then get the Ultimate Indexer. It has a more efficient handle for tying rotary and can be adjusted to a more ergonomic angle when tying conventionally. If the latter isn't important to you than get the Barracuda model with the better handle. Still pricey, but it's a hell of a vise!
I've never liked the short jaw shafts & two point adjustments on the Renzetti type of vises.
That depends... I moisten and fold marabou and use the fingers of my left hand to smooth the barbules back with each wrap. This keeps trapping to a minimum and results in a much better application of the material. It's a must for professional looking speys. The technique is harder to do using the rotary function. Same with rabbit strips (though you don't fold it). IMO, where the rotary really comes into its own is palmering hackle and winding ribbing for those that have problems with their spacing when tying conventionally.
Then I would go with the Dyna-King as Tony suggested. It's got decent space behind the fly and nothing holds like 'em. Get the C-clamp! Models? The Trekker is the best buy. If money is no object then get the Ultimate Indexer. It has a more efficient handle for tying rotary and can be adjusted to a more ergonomic angle when tying conventionally. If the latter isn't important to you than get the Barracuda model with the better handle. Still pricey, but it's a hell of a vise!
I've never liked the short jaw shafts & two point adjustments on the Renzetti type of vises.
The Dyna-King is true rotary and I palmer bunny strips, hackle and marabou easier with this function than by hand.
That depends... I moisten and fold marabou and use the fingers of my left hand to smooth the barbules back with each wrap. This keeps trapping to a minimum and results in a much better application of the material. It's a must for professional looking speys. The technique is harder to do using the rotary function. Same with rabbit strips (though you don't fold it). IMO, where the rotary really comes into its own is palmering hackle and winding ribbing for those that have problems with their spacing when tying conventionally.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
Kschaefer3 on Oct 10, 2013October 10th, 2013, 10:55 am EDT
Kyle -
Then I would go with the Dyna-King as Tony suggested. It's got decent space behind the fly and nothing holds like 'em. Get the C-clamp! Models? The Trekker is the best buy. If money is no object then get the Ultimate Indexer. It has a more efficient handle for tying rotary and can be adjusted to a more ergonomic angle when tying conventionally. If the latter isn't important to you than get the Barracuda model with the better handle. Still pricey, but it's a hell of a vise!
I've never liked the short jaw shafts & two point adjustments on the Renzetti type of vices.
Sure, now you have me looking at the Ultimate Indexer!!! What next, a special edition that is well over $1000? :)
I do like the idea of being able to adjust the angle for rotary and conventional tying. Money is an object, but I'm young and purposely keep responsibilities low, so I may be able to swing it.
Entoman on Oct 10, 2013October 10th, 2013, 12:09 pm EDT
Ha! Yeah, I had a Barracuda for awhile, but sold it. Just wasn't getting the value out of it.
Since I broke the Regals I now tie mostly with the Dyna-King Pro. If I'm tying a bunch of large speys, I'll still break out the Regal as no adjustments are necessary. It too has a notch and will bend a 2/0 salmon hook and never slip. If I occasionally need to use a rotary function, it's simple to adjust it horizontal and move the hook in the jaws until the shank is in line with the axis. The handle spins it almost as efficiently as the poorly designed ones on many true rotary designs, though you do have to pause with each rotation to re-position the hand. The main problem is (like with the Nor-Vise) you have zero room behind the hook - but that doesn't seem to be an issue with most rotary techniques. Stay away from tiny flies (20 & smaller) or setting hooks too close to the tip and I'd still recommend it as the best all around vice regardless of cost.
I am thinking about that LAW vise, though... I've tied some on one and it is the best. Money is definitely an issue there.:)
PS - The Regal is also awesome to put a tube fly adapter in. Have you experimented with them in your streamer designs? They're pretty cool. Hook well, swim well and if you fish snaggy water or dull hooks a lot, you'll keep your flies longer.
Since I broke the Regals I now tie mostly with the Dyna-King Pro. If I'm tying a bunch of large speys, I'll still break out the Regal as no adjustments are necessary. It too has a notch and will bend a 2/0 salmon hook and never slip. If I occasionally need to use a rotary function, it's simple to adjust it horizontal and move the hook in the jaws until the shank is in line with the axis. The handle spins it almost as efficiently as the poorly designed ones on many true rotary designs, though you do have to pause with each rotation to re-position the hand. The main problem is (like with the Nor-Vise) you have zero room behind the hook - but that doesn't seem to be an issue with most rotary techniques. Stay away from tiny flies (20 & smaller) or setting hooks too close to the tip and I'd still recommend it as the best all around vice regardless of cost.
I am thinking about that LAW vise, though... I've tied some on one and it is the best. Money is definitely an issue there.:)
PS - The Regal is also awesome to put a tube fly adapter in. Have you experimented with them in your streamer designs? They're pretty cool. Hook well, swim well and if you fish snaggy water or dull hooks a lot, you'll keep your flies longer.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
Entoman on Oct 10, 2013October 10th, 2013, 12:37 pm EDT
After the first year I had chips at the head, sent the vice back to Regal, and they re-did the head free, and sent a note along scolding me, and telling me to learn how to put a hook in the vice! I did, and the rest is history as they say.
That's why I didn't bother to send them back, Jere. Re-doing the head won't fix the temper or whatever the problem is. There's not much throat to seat a #24 hook very deep. That's what I was using when I heard the "ping." Seating the hook properly is about protecting the hook not the vise. No hook should damage a well designed set of jaws made of proper materials. Them telling anybody to learn how to do it properly as if the vise wasn't at fault is a bunch of crap. Saying that to a pro like yourself is insulting.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
Roguerat on Oct 10, 2013October 10th, 2013, 3:54 pm EDT
I'm still using the Thompson model 'A' I bought in '93. It's simple and a real workhorse, pretty well bullet-proof.
I am holding out for a Renzetti Traveler, though; having used a buddy's more than once has spoiled me for a true rotary. Have to wait a couple years for retirement to kick in, when I'll have the time at the bench to justify upgrading...
Roguerat
I Peter 5:7 'Cast your cares upon Him...'
I am holding out for a Renzetti Traveler, though; having used a buddy's more than once has spoiled me for a true rotary. Have to wait a couple years for retirement to kick in, when I'll have the time at the bench to justify upgrading...
Roguerat
I Peter 5:7 'Cast your cares upon Him...'
Jmd123 on Oct 10, 2013October 10th, 2013, 7:21 pm EDT
Wow, the vice question really lit up Troutnut.com good. I am still using an old Renzetti rotary that my ex-wife got me at least twenty years ago, gonna need replacing eventually but it has worked well for me for a really long time. Perhaps a testament to the brand? I certainly don't tie as hard as many on here but it has held many thousands of hooks over the decades and is still going strong. And I've tied everything from size 20 to size 6/0 with it too.
Not really much to add, just my 2 cents worth...
Jonathon
Not really much to add, just my 2 cents worth...
Jonathon
No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...
Feathers5
Posts: 287
Posts: 287
Feathers5 on Oct 11, 2013October 11th, 2013, 6:03 am EDT
Being a dour, nondescript sort of guy, I'd like to say that I love my Renzetti Traveler, Regal Vises, cold beer and hot women. I would add that most any vise is good enough to tie some flies, but you don't want to use a butter knife to gut a deer, as previously indicated. Of course, it's been so long since I've needed to gut a deer, I can't remember what I use.
Antonio, would you like to sell me one of those Regals or are you saving them for Tony and John?
Eric, grouse hunting, is that still a possibility?
Spence, go Tigers vs. Boston.
Antonio, would you like to sell me one of those Regals or are you saving them for Tony and John?
Eric, grouse hunting, is that still a possibility?
Spence, go Tigers vs. Boston.
Sayfu
Posts: 560
Posts: 560
Sayfu on Oct 11, 2013October 11th, 2013, 8:58 am EDT
Kurt...I stretched the truth a bit saying I tied # 22's. I 've tied very few #20's, and use a # 18 caddis/pupa short shank, and call them #20, and #22's. I seldom go tippet size smaller than 4x for the waters I fish. I've only cast over those hallowed waters at the "Ranch" on the Henry's Fork, but two times, and then only to say that I have. My approach is generallyu fly first, and go bigger tippet. Up river presentations are always in riffle water. I had one guy tell me Regals will destroy small hooks. ?? I know nothing about that. For the flies I tie, from steelhead/salmon to my trout hooks, the vice looks very much the same as I bought it.
Jmd123 on Oct 11, 2013October 11th, 2013, 9:23 am EDT
"Spence, go Tigers vs. Boston."
As a Michigander, I second that motion!
Jonathon
As a Michigander, I second that motion!
Jonathon
No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...
Oldredbarn on Oct 11, 2013October 11th, 2013, 9:25 am EDT
Spence, go Tigers vs. Boston.
Bruce...Don't let Eric see this, he's cheering for them beaners. Should be a good series, but we need to light up them bats...They can go cold sometimes at the worse possible times. I like watching the older teams going nose to nose...Boston/Detroit good for the ratings.
Verlander was serious last night! Wow!
Heard a rumor our girlfriend April Vokey just got herself engaged...Bruce...You snooze you lose bro. ;)
Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively
"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
Crepuscular on Oct 11, 2013October 11th, 2013, 9:32 am EDT
Eric, grouse hunting, is that still a possibility?
Spence, go Tigers vs. Boston.
Well it was until that comment...;)
Oldredbarn on Oct 11, 2013October 11th, 2013, 10:05 am EDT
Well it was until that comment...;)
What comment? The one about Big Popi and steroids??? What? ;)
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively
"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
CaseyP on Oct 11, 2013October 11th, 2013, 1:30 pm EDT
late to the party but wanted to say that if you're a middling tyer and want to upgrade your results, get a real rotary vise. it's so much easier to properly palmer hackles, or wind on any material with much smoother results.
and then when you do in your shoulder and can't hold your arms up at eye level for hours any more, you can put the rotary on a tying desk on your lap and still have the right angle of view of the fly.
it's one of the few times i've ever gotten something to "grow into" and actually learned all that it could do and used it.
noticed no one mentioned the NorVice. if i were tying large stuff, i'd use one. gave mine away to Project Healing Waters because i need to tie on my lap and i don't tie much large stuff any more.
P.S. Dodgers in 6!
and then when you do in your shoulder and can't hold your arms up at eye level for hours any more, you can put the rotary on a tying desk on your lap and still have the right angle of view of the fly.
it's one of the few times i've ever gotten something to "grow into" and actually learned all that it could do and used it.
noticed no one mentioned the NorVice. if i were tying large stuff, i'd use one. gave mine away to Project Healing Waters because i need to tie on my lap and i don't tie much large stuff any more.
P.S. Dodgers in 6!
"You can observe a lot by watching." Yogi Berra
Entoman on Oct 11, 2013October 11th, 2013, 11:37 pm EDT
Jere -
You're a kind soul. I would of let them have it! But, that wouldn't have gotten your vise fixed for free. :) I could grind & polish the vises myself - perhaps I will.
Casey - I'm bummed the Bucs lost... Crudinals and Dodgeballers for the Penant? Uggh... I'm not an American League fan, but I have to root for Detroit at this point.:( At least the Braves are out. Hearing the "Tomahawk chop" makes me break out with hives...
You're a kind soul. I would of let them have it! But, that wouldn't have gotten your vise fixed for free. :) I could grind & polish the vises myself - perhaps I will.
Casey - I'm bummed the Bucs lost... Crudinals and Dodgeballers for the Penant? Uggh... I'm not an American League fan, but I have to root for Detroit at this point.:( At least the Braves are out. Hearing the "Tomahawk chop" makes me break out with hives...
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
Sayfu
Posts: 560
Posts: 560
Sayfu on Oct 12, 2013October 12th, 2013, 5:28 am EDT
Maybe Detroit can draw in enough money to pay down some of their massive debt, and rebuild that city. I liked Langoria, and Tampa Bay, but their fans didn't during the playoffs, and regular season...disappointing crowds. Lots of talent out there now, and I enjoy watching talent. Just wish those old, blind umpires were as physically capable as the players.
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