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I've got an easy to make exceptionally fine leader construction that really turns over great...anyone want to understand how to make them?

Sure thing, i'll check out your formula buddy!

I'm a tinkerer, and always up to trying something new. I tried the furled, fabric leaders. A friend got into making a tool that would twist, a synthetic fiber of some kind...too flimsy, I didn't like them, but for a short rod, lt. line, and short casts, BUT...at our big fly tying EXPO I bought several twisted mono leaders. The guy twisted 8' of .010 Maxima Ultra Green mono and then connected an 18" length of the .010 that you could now tie your tippet too. I liked them, and the turn over good, BUT (again) I now sit down at the bench, and double up and twist .013 for the 4-5 WT rods, and a .015 twisted for 6-7-8 wts. I only twist a butt section taking a say 9' piece of .013, and doubling and twisting creating a small loop at the butt, and granny knotting at the end to retain the twists, then joining a piece(15" of .013) behind the knot with a surgeons knot, then tapering on out with blood knots to complete the leader. They punch over! What you are essentially doing is doubling your diameter, creating more wt.. and stiffness, but not too stiff. It remains very flexible. I can loop to loop with a flyline that has the loop. or nail knot it on behind the loop, then trimming off the loop. Never had a leader turn over as well. I am in the intro stage of working with butt diameters, but like what I have to far. I sit and twist. The guy at the show uses a slow drill motor I do believe. But twisting a 4ft. butt section doesn't take all that long.

You use Maxima as well for your .013/.015 Sayfu?

No, but ultra green is a very popular softer more flexible leader material. I am using a once popular on the West Coast, and a lot of salt water leaders were made with it called Velux..no longer made, but a somewhat softer, flexible leader material. It is also possible to twist the butt section, and end up with a loop in both ends. I can't do that because I forgot how the guy showed me. At the show, the MFGer of the Nor-Vice (Norm Norlander) demonstrated at his booth how to make them in various ways. The fellow that showed me has his wife help him. He starts with the single strand, say 9', and his wife securely holding the other end. He twists positioned 9 ft. away from her, and when he sees the twists reach her, and not too tight he has her come to his end, and he secures it, and now he has tight twists..granny knotted off, and twists retained. I took my 4 wt. and out to my test pond/lake that my city just built, and casted into a fairly good breeze...the leader turns fully over with ease. I've seen differences of opinion over the years as to what transfers the energy best in the butt section...harder stiff mono?...or softer mono. Twisted of course you do increase the stiffness some, add wt., and in essence, double the diameter. I do know that my neighbor here in town, RIO LINE Co. sells the most leaders out here for sure, and they use the biggest butt diameter of any. If others would use a .021 for a 9' 4x they use .023 for the same leader...a little heavier, and stiffer turning over the leader better. If you do it yourself sitting on a chair, you twist with both hands towards you, and the downstream hand has to constantly run your hand downstream freeing up the mono, and not letting it get tangled. I go down aways twisting, then back, and making sure I have a smaller loop at the beginning. The more you twist the more the mono wants to twist, and it becomes easy. You can tell when you see the twists fairly close together, and no opening up of twists as you go that you have it tight. Doesn't appear to me so far that a fly barb can catch between a twist..it is as one. I think it may depend on your waters, and power applied casting in general. You may like the more subtle laydown of the commercial guys 8lb Maxima, and twisted virtually all the way out to the tippet you use. I'm a big water guy, and fully load most of the time, and the twisted butts work great. And I don't know if it makes a difference either way.

I've got a great test lab..a new groomed park lake the city built last year that I can get lots of information gathering done. Very clear water, and I can bug ID, practice casting, observe a tied flies action/attitude in the water, and test out these leaders. After this morning I do not think I'd twist over a .013 leader butt for rods 6wt, and smaller. .013 works very well. I used a 16" section of the .013 surgeons knotted at the end of a 4ft twisted butt, then .010 and a 3x tippet constructing a 9ft leader. I also went home, and used a drill motor putting the two matched ends in the chuck, and the other doubled end around a nail pounded in my bench. I used about a 9ft. piece of .013. I twisted it to the point it sprung together. I would need my wife to be at the nail, and tell me when it twisted to that point, and then quit. But I then sat down with that twisted section, and re-twisted it by hand, and it took no time then to finish it starting at the loop, and working down to tying a granny near the end. I can't say enough how well a leader turns over having a twisted butt section.

Interesting.

And I do like small loops. You can easily create a small loop at the joining end. Many new lines out have a small loop at the end. The leader locks down nicely better than when the loops are bigger. I've got 16 rods all with lines and reels on them. Some of them are less than great rods. Some of them I consider rods that don't cast very well....but they do with a twisted leader butt !! I've got a softer 8 1/2 ft rod, a Lamiglass that I broke the tip section. I took an Xtra tip from a 9.5 ft Loomis rod that I had and made it fit. A real piece of work, and it sat getting little use. I took it out to the lake today, and it punched out excellent casts with the new leader.

Sayfu;

Any idea why the twisted leader butt turns over better?

Yes I do. Turn over, the transfer of energy as they call it, needs the leader connection to be 2/3, or there abouts the diameter of the connecting fly line. It also depends on the connecting leader butt to approximate the weight of the flyline end. With diameter comes natural stiffness being reduced as you taper down, Twisting the leader butt diameter does double the size, wt., and stiffness, although the .013 that I used yesterday does not appear to be too stiff. The question for me in the past is the experts opinion of whether a larger soft mono transfers energy better, and better turnover, or a hard mono being the better mono for the butt material. I believe it is more just size, and wt. with diameter comes the needed stiffness. The connection is a single strand, not doubled but someone might have a thought regarding the doubled being too heavy, and pulling down the flyline connection. With my fishing I have not had that problem as I don't drift the dry fly long enough to have the butt contribute to sinking the fly, and then I have no problem making a strip, or two, which I do regardless, and lifting the flyline out of the water for another cast. There's a lot you can do with these. And for an old fishin buddy that is 89 yrs,. old, and an excellent fly fisherman that can no longer tie a fly because of his eye sight, and has trouble tying on a new tippet? He fishes lakes a lot using a sink tip. I've tied him up a 3 ft twisted butt with a very small swivel attached. Now he can easily tie a tippet to the swivel, and lake fish the sink tip using around a 6ft leader. Cost of these as advertized is around $13. I tie one up for around a dime not counting my labor time...much too fun to charge for that!

I tested a 8.5 ft. twisted butt leader this morning...4 ft. of the twisted .013 and it worked incredibly well. But I am going to have to get a small net to gather bugs. Just can't catch'um by hand. A decent sized white winged caddis came off, a few of them, and they'd land in the well defined weed areas they've established around the lake, or they fly to the shrub/bush areas they've established.(guessing size #16) I finally captured one..a low profile white wing, and an amber body. I've also captured them with a lt. green body. I think they are a White Miller, a Nectopsyche, But a guess after going to the book.

Yes, the diameter of the leader being changed increasing its turn over effectiveness sounds right to me. How long does it take you to whip one up?

I can do it rather quick now. I still have some tweeking to do given I need to get my wife downstairs to my flytying (lab) and watch the other end that is wrapped around the nail in my shelf doubling up the leader material. I can put the two loose ends in the drill chuck, and slowly run it twisting it down to the nail, but need to have someone tell me when to stop. But by just starting the twists some, then removing the doubled end from the nail, and doing it then by hand making sure the doubled end loop is small, and twisting it towards my body with both hands working down near the end it doesn't take long...maybe a 5 min. operation...then the granny, and then the surgeons knot behind the granny extended out with a single piece of say .013, and it is easy to taper out to your tippet. If I use .013 about 16" it is then just a 12" piece of .010 then a 3x tippet. If I want a smaller tippet I need to say include the .008 3x diameter of about 10" then a 4 or 5x tippet...you decide on your tapers. That then ends up with a 4 ft. butt section, or there abouts, and a 9ft. leader. Done right, I may get the butt finished with just the drill motor. I'll be out to the lake down the street casting that very same leader this morning. If you don't have a looped end flyline, you can put the looped end in the nail knot tool, and nail knot it on the flyline, and then trim off the loop. I only use 3 turns of the doubled so I do not add too much wt. to the end of the flyline. The butt length dimensions do not seem to be critical to me right now. Anything I've put together has really worked well.

guys,

check out the 'furled leader forum', lots of info on every method of making leaders- plus a plethora of formulae and other esoterica on materials, thread diameters (metric and normal)...and a world-wide membership that's very interesting and more than willing to share tecniques. I've 'talked' with people in NZ and the Netherlands regarding personal favorites and all, and I've been using the so-called 'traditional' method of furling leaders for over a year now- cheap and fun on a rainy day! 12' feet of 1 x 4, some dowels, and a spool of appropriate 2# test or nylon thread and you're on your way.

The Roguerat

I Peter5:7 'Cast your cares upon Him...'

For me, as a fly angler dedicated to the pleasures of casting a fly, there is no comparison between thread, furled leaders, and a twisted mono leader. The turnover is exceptional with twisted mono leaders, and I only twist the butt section. I am convinced that the twisting of a diameter is much better than a single strand of mono the diameter of the twisted portion.