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Lateral view of a Male Baetis (Baetidae) (Blue-Winged Olive) Mayfly Dun from Mystery Creek #43 in New York
Blue-winged Olives
Baetis

Tiny Baetis mayflies are perhaps the most commonly encountered and imitated by anglers on all American trout streams due to their great abundance, widespread distribution, and trout-friendly emergence habits.

Ventral view of a Hydropsyche (Hydropsychidae) (Spotted Sedge) Caddisfly Larva from the Yakima River in Washington
With a bit of help from the microscope, this specimen keys clearly and unsurprisingly to Hydropsyche.
27" brown trout, my largest ever. It was the sub-dominant fish in its pool. After this, I hooked the bigger one, but I couldn't land it.
Troutnut is a project started in 2003 by salmonid ecologist Jason "Troutnut" Neuswanger to help anglers and fly tyers unabashedly embrace the entomological side of the sport. Learn more about Troutnut or support the project for an enhanced experience here.

Lam
Lancaster, PA

Posts: 81
Lam on Nov 4, 2007November 4th, 2007, 4:40 am EST
Since the topic has been brought up as an adjunct in a previous post, I thought I would give the topic it's own thread.

Here is a link that a friend's father wrote. I like his web site as it pertains mostly to the area that I grew up. This particular article is on Catch and Release practices. I am not saying that I agree with everything he writes but I thought it was an interesting opinon. Keep in mind that there is some sarcasm sprinkled thru the article so don't take all of it literally. It should be pretty obvious.

http://www.pennswoods.net/~tomdewey/fishing/Catch%20and%20Release.html

Thougts, anyone?

By the way, when you are on his site, check out his other articles.
Smallstream
State College, PA

Posts: 103
Smallstream on Nov 4, 2007November 4th, 2007, 9:55 am EST
i dont think that this necessarily goes right along with the topic but do any of you guys know what the survival rate is for releasing injured trout?
Softhackle
Softhackle's profile picture
Wellsville, NY

Posts: 540
Softhackle on Nov 4, 2007November 4th, 2007, 10:51 am EST
Hi,
the last I read the mortality rate for fly-caught trout was roughly 3.9%. This is uninjured trout. However, you must remember that a lot of factors go into whether or not a trout survives catch and release. One is, in fact, if the trout is injured. Other factors might be--how long the fish is fought, if taken out of the water- how long that period is, how the fish is handled, water temperature, etc.

Mark
"I have the highest respect for the skilled wet-fly fisherman, as he has mastered an art of very great difficulty." Edward R. Hewitt

Flymphs, Soft-hackles and Spiders: http://www.troutnut.com/libstudio/FS&S/index.html
CaseyP
CaseyP's profile picture
Arlington, VA/ Mercersburg, PA

Posts: 653
CaseyP on Nov 4, 2007November 4th, 2007, 11:36 am EST
if you ignore the more ridiculous angling humor in the following thread, here is some more stuff about C&R.

http://www.troutnut.com/topic/748
"You can observe a lot by watching." Yogi Berra
Quillgordon
Schuylkill County, PA.

Posts: 109
Quillgordon on Nov 4, 2007November 4th, 2007, 11:46 am EST
Softhackle said:
the last I read the mortality rate for fly-caught trout was roughly 3.9%.
*************************************************
I don't see anyway that anyone can do an accurrate test for this. There are too many variables to get a valid conclusion.
I do know one thing....... if you do 'catch and release' that trout, there is a possibility that the trout will survive. If you take the trout............ there is NO Possibility' that you or anyone else will catch it again.
John

Flyfishing is a state of mind! .............. Q.g.

C/R........barbless
SlateDrake9
Potter County, PA

Posts: 144
SlateDrake9 on Nov 5, 2007November 5th, 2007, 11:31 am EST
Lam,

My biggest thought is that Tom is not a very popular guy amoung many local fly fishers in Potter County. I've never met or talked to him, so I can only go by what others have to say and what I see on his website, but there seems to be a lot of issues. The biggest thing I hear about him is the hotspotting that he does. Not many folks are happy that he puts a lot of info about the area on the internet. Many fisherfolks in the area feel that he doesn't help the overcrowding happening on many of the area streams.

I only bring this up because I think it is ironic that he writes about stream side ethics and I personally believe that advertising streams that cannot handle the pressure of a lot of fisherfolks is not ethical.

Slate Drake
Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.
-- Slate Drake
Lam
Lancaster, PA

Posts: 81
Lam on Nov 5, 2007November 5th, 2007, 11:48 am EST
Since I only make it back to Potter County a few times a year, maybe your (Slatedrake) can tell me if you have actually experienced heavier stream traffic after one of his articles. When I am in PC I usually fish the upper Allegheny out of convenience but I fish many other places too, Oswayo, Genny, etc. I rarely run into other fishermen (unless it's somewhere around "opening day" but that brings out the crowds anywhere).

I certainly understand what you mean about the hotspotting issue and his stream biographies fly in the face of tradition but I have noticed that his site doesn't get all that much traffic. I suppose the newspaper his articles are in get read more frequently.

I guess because I grew up there and only get back once in a while, I like having the resource to check on local stream conditions, etc. I just wish nobody else knew about it!
SlateDrake9
Potter County, PA

Posts: 144
SlateDrake9 on Nov 5, 2007November 5th, 2007, 12:23 pm EST
As far as heavier stream traffic in relation to his articles, I cannot relate the two, as I do not follow him or his articles.

Again, I have not met him, nor do I care to.

I can tell you that the streams in this area are seeing a significantly higher amount of fisherfolks than they have in the past. Through most of the year also, not just the month or so following the opening day in April. Is this related directly to him, I don't know and don't care to spend the time to research it either.

What I can tell you is that his posting info on the world wide web is not helping the situation.

Overall, all I am saying is that I think it is ironic that he writes about stream side ethics and I personally believe that advertising streams that cannot handle the pressure of a lot of fisherfolks is not ethical.

Slate Drake
Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.
-- Slate Drake
Dano
Vanderbilt, Michigan

Posts: 101
Dano on Nov 6, 2007November 6th, 2007, 3:06 am EST
Lam,

Not too sure about what thoughts you're interested in...I didn't go to the site you posted, though it appears I should, just out of curiosity since this discussion seems to be going in the direction of slamming an individual who doesn't appear to be a member here....

If you're interested on my thoughts concerning the titled topic of this discussion, I'd be happy to share them...

Dano


Eventually, all things merge into one...and a river runs through it.
Lam
Lancaster, PA

Posts: 81
Lam on Nov 6, 2007November 6th, 2007, 3:41 am EST
Sure, opine away, that's why I started the thread.

I included the link to that article because it points out that C&R still produces fatalities. SOME people, not all that many I guess, are holier than though because the practice c & r and those that don't practice it aren't worthy of breathing. But c&r doesn't always = survival.

I personally practice c & r and have kept one fish in the last 15 years. A favor for someone that never ate trout before. I don't really care if others keep fish as long as they aren't piggish and wasteful about it.
Lam
Lancaster, PA

Posts: 81
Lam on Nov 6, 2007November 6th, 2007, 4:15 am EST
"What I can tell you is that his posting info on the world wide web is not helping the situation."

No disagreement there.



"Overall, all I am saying is that I think it is ironic that he writes about stream side ethics and I personally believe that advertising streams that cannot handle the pressure of a lot of fisherfolks is not ethical."

I understand, and I don't disagree either.

However, isn't every fly fishing magazine, guide service that advertises, and even this forum guilty to varying degrees?
SlateDrake9
Potter County, PA

Posts: 144
SlateDrake9 on Nov 6, 2007November 6th, 2007, 10:26 am EST
However, isn't every fly fishing magazine, guide service that advertises, and even this forum guilty to varying degrees?


YES!!!!!

I cringe when I see someone name a stream on the internet, especially so when they talk about how many fish caught. If you want to brag about fish numbers, brag about fish numbers but don't name the stream. Your story will have just as much weight without a stream location.

I cringe twice as much when I see someone post on line information that names a specific stream and an actual specific location where fish are "stacked" I have seen this twice this summer during our drought conditions where a local stream was named with a very easily found exact location where the fish were taking refuge from the hot, low water. I knew of these locations myself, but didn't bother the fish due to the conditions, but saw many unfamiliar vehicles parked near the locations with folks fishing there. Well, within a few weeks, the majority of the fish were caught and taken home (I assume because the water condition did not improve so the fish could scatter out again and some tell tell gut piles). I believe that these fish could have held over if they were left alone.

I won't even get started on magazines or articles in major newspapers written by guides and the such trying to drum up business.

John Gierach seems to have made himself quite a career without hotspotting, as he most likely realizes that advertising will ruin his waters.
Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.
-- Slate Drake
Lam
Lancaster, PA

Posts: 81
Lam on Nov 6, 2007November 6th, 2007, 11:26 am EST
|"John Gierach seems to have made himself quite a career without hotspotting, as he most likely realizes that advertising will ruin his waters."


From the day I started reading fly fishing based books Gierach was my favorite. I like his style and appreciate the fact that he doesn't give out stream names. In fact, if you read closely he repeats his philosphy in numerous books and articles about keeping stream names secret. When questioned about particular spots he humorously talks his way around an answer.


Dano
Vanderbilt, Michigan

Posts: 101
Dano on Nov 6, 2007November 6th, 2007, 1:29 pm EST
Well, Lam, FWIW I was taught "catch and release" long before the phrase was coined. Back in those days the mantra was "limit your catch, don't catch your limit". This was commonly refered to as conservation and applied to other sports in the field as well.

Stream side ethics go beyond just "catch and release" and ultimately boils down to one's conscience and personal beliefs. I don't believe it unethical if one chooses to use bait, where it's legal, nor do I look down upon those who do use bait.

I choose not to use bait because I do practice catch and release, I do use spinning tackle, and I do kill an occasional fish. I do so with a completely clear conscience.

I kill more Browns and Brookies than Rainbows. Browns because they're non-native and take over the streams in which they are planted in. Brookies because the State wants me to; they realize thier mistake and are trying to preserve the native Bull Trout (Dolly Varden) which are endangered and they want to keep the strain as "pure" as possible.

When I lived in Michigan I rarely killed a Brook Trout. I witnessed first hand the "destruction" of prime Brook Trout waters such as The Jordan River, the Pigeon River, and the Black River (Lower Penninsula) with the planting of Browns. Understand that I grew up in a place and time where Browns were deemed invasive by the "old timers" and to a certain degree I still hold to that attitude.

I even remember a time when wet's, nymphs, and streamers were frowned upon by the "uppercrust". These yahoos thought the only "proper" way to fish was with a dry to a rising trout and weren't shy at all in letting one know it. 'Course dry fly fishing to rising trout is the easiest way to catch fish, mebbe that's why they were the ones who spoke most often (and loudest) of the "art" and made it sound so difficult to master.

Any who, those are some of my thoughts....

Dano



Eventually, all things merge into one...and a river runs through it.
Lam
Lancaster, PA

Posts: 81
Lam on Nov 6, 2007November 6th, 2007, 2:13 pm EST
Slatedrake,

You said: "I can tell you that the streams in this area are seeing a significantly higher amount of fisherfolks than they have in the past. Through most of the year also, not just the month or so following the opening day in April. Is this related directly to him, I don't know and don't care to spend the time to research it either."


I'll take your word for it as you live in that region now and I don't. My recent (last few years) experience is limited to a half dozen or so trips per year and I have run into very few people. Most often it's in the designated catch and release area north of town. the other places I fish I usually have completely to myself. As a kid, I used to fish nearly every day "in season" and almost always saw somebody else. Now it's the opposite.

I am NOT argueing your take on the present scene, as I stated above I only get up a few times per year any more and you are in the thick of it on a daily basis. Maybe my thinking was influenced by the fact the deer harvest is down in that area (according to what I hear) and a lot of people I run into say they don't go there any more to hunt. In my youth the population of the town tripled during deer hunting season and I don't think that is the case now. I guess I equated less hunters to less fishermen too. I am a little disheartened that the area is seeing more fishermen than in past. As a native of the area with several generations of family still living there, I hold that place dear and wish it to remain unspoiled ( or more accurately not any more spoiled).
Gene
Posts: 107
Gene on Nov 6, 2007November 6th, 2007, 4:30 pm EST
Gentlemen:

This is a complex issue and there are no simple answers to the problem. I looked at Dewey's site and actually doubt if he is really responsible for the increased traffic if there is that much by himself. There are lots of fly fishing articles in a number of fishing magazines national and statewide that talk about these streams and many more websites too. This is an old argument about the locals versus the outsiders in both hunting and fishing. But I wonder if you asked the local people who make their money from the increased revenues of the outsiders in hunting and fishing how they feel! When I was a young man I fished Kettle Creek and surrounding streams in the spring. It was how we started the season with a trek from Western Pennsylvania to the northern counties. I was amazed that so many people were able to find these streams that seemed to be so far off the beaten path. Many people came from New York and other states to fish these streams. For the most part it was good camaraderie and everyone got along. The little stores and the bars loved it as well as the fly shop because this was one of the months that kept them in business.

There is no easy answer to this because overfishing does damage the quality of the experience and sometimes the ecosystem too. But this reminds me of what my late friend the legendary Charlie Fox told me years ago. He said that fly fishing patterns, techniques and methods were all secret (why do you think Salmon flies have such exotic stuff on them! Yes that's the reason..they didn't want anyone else to tie them). Fly anglers were amazed at what he and Ross Trimmer and others shared with the people who came down to fish the streams of the Cumberland Valley. It was basically unheard of in the 30's and 40's. So you have a dilemma of telling people about streams. I tell people about spring creeks on my websites such as www.limestoner.com and I have pissed off many guides and fly shops because I actually tell them what shape the streams are in. I think I should know because I have fished them for over 30 years and did all the research on them but that doesn't matter to those who wish to make a fast buck on telling people things that aren't true to lure fly anglers to hire them. I don't see that on Dewey's site..he doesn't seem to be overselling anything.

If a trout rose in a stream and no one was there to observe it, would it matter? But if a trout rose in a stream and someone observed it would it cause someone to try and protect that stream from getting destroyed because it did matter to them? Perhaps we can't have it both ways. We are own worst enemy in a way.

The situation represents in some respects larger numbers of fly anglers and diminishing amount of water to fish. And it's the same on many Western Rivers too. In the late 70's on Henry's Fork of the Snake I saw people almost get into fist fights over people getting too close! Even on the Yellowstone I got crowded out (I know that's hard to believe but I guess these clowns thought the reason I was catching all the cutthroats was because they had to be right in front of me).

I only fish Potter a few times of year so I can't honestly say how bad the increased pressure is. I did teach a fly fishing clinic on Pine this year and I do know the Slate Run Tackle shop is for sale but I saw more canoers and kayakers and bikers than fly anglers.

This is the price we pay for public water and public access..the good and the bad.

tight lines and dancing nymphs

gene
www.limestoner.com

"Trout are like women...some are smart, some are dumb, and some are prettier than others and there is not one method that works for all of them!"
Flybinder
Oregon Coast

Posts: 60
Flybinder on Nov 6, 2007November 6th, 2007, 8:36 pm EST
GENE;
Thank you for a VERY interesting and intelligent post!! I really enjoyed reading it.

I wasn't really going to even make a post on this particular thread, because it's all been said I think and said fairly well, by those that have posted so far!!

But, then I caught your sentence on "Guides telling people untruths, in order to get them to hire them"!!
Well, that really caught my peepers, because just this past week I made one of my monthly treks up to my "local" fly shop. "Local", because it's the only one near to me, but yet, still 107 miles from my house!!

Anyhoooooo...... as usual, on these visits, the owner and I and a few, others were sitting and yacking, when a local area guide,came in.Right behind him, came three other gents.

My "home waters", for one, is the "Necanicum River", on the Oregon Coast. I'd just fished it, the day before my fly shop visit because the Sea Run Cutts are currently in the river and stacked up like cord wood. The fishing is the best it's been, in 10 years.

Well, the 3 gents, that had just came in, asked the shop owner "Where's the best fishing, right now, for Sea Run Cutthroats?
Don, (the shop owner), started to turn to ME, since I know the coastal waters well and of course, had just been talking to him about the great Sea Run fishing, on the Necanicum.

Before, I could utter a word, this "GUIDE", jumped right in and told the 3 men........... "Oh, the Cutthroat fishing is TERRIBLE, right now!! The ONLY place, that I've been able to score for MY clients, is down on the Trask River!! 'Course, to get at 'em, ya' need a boat and of course, someone that knows the water and where they're hiding out!"

After scooping my lower jaw, up off the floor, I wanted to seriously see just how ignorant this "supposed guide" truly was, let alone, his "honesty level", so I ever so innocently asked him; "Really!?? How about, the Necanicum River? Any good fishing, there?" (this guide had NO idea who the heck I was).

"The Necanicum?? God, no! It's awful down there right now!! Friend of mine, guides there, I don't, but he told me how the recent super heavy rains have really muddied the water and the river's STILL all "blown out" and over its banks!! Ya' can't fish in water like that and the Cutt's sure won't hit anything in muddy water!"

Hmmmmmm........... Odd, since the river we were all discussing, was 107 miles away from where we all were talking............ we haven't had ANY RAIN, for 3 weeks.. let alone; "SUPER HEAVY RAINS" and the river is currently in the best shape it's been in all year!?! Not, to mention, like I said the Cutts fishing has been the best in 10 years!!?

Well, fortunately, this "guide", had to suddenly "relieve himself in the back of too much morning coffee consumption" and while he was gone, we set the 3 gents straight. I also, offered to take them fishing on the Necanicum the next day for free, if they'd call me when they got down to the coast.Which, I did, and we had a great day of Sea Run fishing!

It's sad, that guides do these things. Of course they have to make a living, like everyone else, but how long are you going to guide if you build your whole business on out and out lies? The Trask River, he spoke of, by the way, is also well known by locals as "one of our worst, Sea Run river fisheries. It's an excellent, Steelheading river and Sea Runs DO come up it. But not in the numbers to make it "A Sea Run Cutt" destination river.

Anyway, sorry, for the long post. But, your comments really hit home, to me, after last weeks run in with this so called "guide"!!

Flybinder:
"You should'a been here, NEXT week,the fishing's great!"
SlateDrake9
Potter County, PA

Posts: 144
SlateDrake9 on Nov 7, 2007November 7th, 2007, 12:14 pm EST
Maybe my thinking was influenced by the fact the deer harvest is down in that area (according to what I hear) and a lot of people I run into say they don't go there any more to hunt. In my youth the population of the town tripled during deer hunting season and I don't think that is the case now. I guess I equated less hunters to less fishermen too. I am a little disheartened that the area is seeing more fishermen than in past. As a native of the area with several generations of family still living there, I hold that place dear and wish it to remain unspoiled ( or more accurately not any more spoiled).

Couple of things.

The deer harvest is down because there are way fewer deer than there use to be. An example. On the evening drive back up from Wharton to Conrad after a day's fishing, we use to count anywhere between 250 and 350 deer in the fields without the use of a spot light. Now, honestly, I feel lucky if I see a deer on that same drive. There are still some deer left on the posted private property, but not nearly as many as there use to be.

It seems that the folks who are not coming up for hunting at their camps are now coming up for fishing instead.

Examples:

It is not uncommon to see several folks out fishing in the middle of the afternoon in the middle of the week in the middle of the winter. It use to be unheard of to see another person out fishing at these times, but not anymore.

At a popular special regulations area in the area, I counted at least 9 cars in the parking lot every evening for a 2 week period, and this was not even during one of the more popular hatch times. One evening had 17 cars in the lot. In years past, it was uncommon to see more than 5 at any one time, except for the green drake hatch.

There's just way too much publicity about this area and it is definately changing for the worse.
Fishing with bait is like swearing in church.
-- Slate Drake
Falsifly
Falsifly's profile picture
Hayward, WI.

Posts: 660
Falsifly on Nov 7, 2007November 7th, 2007, 6:59 pm EST
The reason the deer population is down is because the fly fisherman are killing all the deer to tie deer hair flies.
Falsifly
When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."
Flybinder
Oregon Coast

Posts: 60
Flybinder on Nov 7, 2007November 7th, 2007, 7:13 pm EST
Hmmm, I thought it was because of the increase in popularity of "antler handled tying tools"!?!
Heck, look at what the "Elephant Foot Umbrella stands", did to THAT population!?! (elephant foot tying tools,on the other hand, are too heavy and can tip over a cement jar fairly easily too).
Flybinder:
"You should'a been here, NEXT week,the fishing's great!"

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