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Baetis
Tiny Baetis mayflies are perhaps the most commonly encountered and imitated by anglers on all American trout streams due to their great abundance, widespread distribution, and trout-friendly emergence habits.
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Hal on Jan 19, 2016January 19th, 2016, 7:22 am EST
Being a newbie to fly fishing,seeking info from the more experienced as to purchasing flies online,include recommendations please.Thanks
Stokes on Jan 19, 2016January 19th, 2016, 8:30 am EST
Any time I purchased flies online,I used Orvis.
Wbranch on Jan 19, 2016January 19th, 2016, 9:04 am EST
Orvis is fine for some folks but you will pay high retail prices. If you PM me I will provide you with two on-line fly dealers who charge only $1.39 each for 1 - 5 flies and $1.19 for 6 - 12. Very high quality, as good as Orvis.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
Oldredbarn on Jan 19, 2016January 19th, 2016, 9:56 am EST
I was always told to wait until you get where you are going and buy flies from the local shops...Back when I started there was no "online" shopping. It was mail-order...My fishing mentor found out I was buying flies and he went through the roof. Our first trip up to Grayling, about half way up, he told me to pull a fly box out of a pocket on his vest...It was loaded with flies..."Those are for you. I think they'll cover just about anything we may run into this week...But you have to get your own box!" :)
The following year he taught me to tie and I was producing my own.
On that first trip we were standing in a store called Caid's in Lovell's MI, just a short walk from the North Branch of the Au Sable and the Lodge that Edison and Ford fished from...We were looking into a sliding glass case there at local patterns...My friend, who never said anything good about hardly anyone's flies, commented that these flies were nicely tied...There was a sign next to them that said, "Flies Tied by Tim Neal"...
The same Tim Neal who posts from time-to-time right here on TroutNut and still whips out thousands of flies a season for the local anglers...Just think of the years that have pasted since May 1991, then add those tied by him prior to my showing up, and all the damn trout that have been poked by flies wrapped by Tim Neal...Incredible! So much for a trouts long term memory...:)
Then add all the flies tied by Tim's old friend J.R...Wow! That's a lot of flies.
The local guys know the local hatches and what it might take to fool the local trout. Those other flies are probably tied by some woman chained to a tying table in Sri Lanka and she's never seen a trout...Or an Ephemerella subvaria. Of course, in Myrtle Beach, maybe you haven't either?
Spence
The following year he taught me to tie and I was producing my own.
On that first trip we were standing in a store called Caid's in Lovell's MI, just a short walk from the North Branch of the Au Sable and the Lodge that Edison and Ford fished from...We were looking into a sliding glass case there at local patterns...My friend, who never said anything good about hardly anyone's flies, commented that these flies were nicely tied...There was a sign next to them that said, "Flies Tied by Tim Neal"...
The same Tim Neal who posts from time-to-time right here on TroutNut and still whips out thousands of flies a season for the local anglers...Just think of the years that have pasted since May 1991, then add those tied by him prior to my showing up, and all the damn trout that have been poked by flies wrapped by Tim Neal...Incredible! So much for a trouts long term memory...:)
Then add all the flies tied by Tim's old friend J.R...Wow! That's a lot of flies.
The local guys know the local hatches and what it might take to fool the local trout. Those other flies are probably tied by some woman chained to a tying table in Sri Lanka and she's never seen a trout...Or an Ephemerella subvaria. Of course, in Myrtle Beach, maybe you haven't either?
Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively
"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
Willy on Jan 19, 2016January 19th, 2016, 1:08 pm EST
What Spence said! If there's one piece of equipment not to cheap out on, it's flies. If you can, buy from a local shop that ties their flies in house. I buy most of my flies from Gates Lodge in Grayling, MI, and I also stock up at Catskill Flies in Roscoe, NY when I get the chance.
Check out my fishing pictures on Instagram.
Wbranch on Jan 19, 2016January 19th, 2016, 1:38 pm EST
I respect all the comments about buying from the local fly shops but I have bought flies from two on-line fly shops (flies I hate to tie) and have never been disappointed with the quality and you just can't beat the pricing.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
TNEAL on Jan 20, 2016January 20th, 2016, 7:49 am EST
Currently at about 300,000..........
Oldredbarn on Jan 20, 2016January 20th, 2016, 12:11 pm EST
Currently at about 300,000..........
Slacker! :)
Willy...How you doing way out there? Don't remember if we crossed paths this past season or not. Happy New Year by-the-way!
You heading this way this year?
Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively
"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
Wiflyfisher on Jan 21, 2016January 21st, 2016, 3:06 pm EST
Three comments...
1) You never mentioned what type of fly fishing you planned on doing or where?
2) I totally agree with Spence and buy locally where you plan a trip, especially for a newbie. They will help you not only with your fly selection but how to fish them.
3) I gotta say - flies of the quality for $1.19 - either the guy is an idiot and doesn't like to make money or everything he is using is cheap and cutting corners, which still makes him a idiotic businessman. I thought the reason to sell offline or online was to make a profit. Why would anyone in business want to leave money on the table (unless you're Amazon or Google with super deep pockets)?
1) You never mentioned what type of fly fishing you planned on doing or where?
2) I totally agree with Spence and buy locally where you plan a trip, especially for a newbie. They will help you not only with your fly selection but how to fish them.
3) I gotta say - flies of the quality for $1.19 - either the guy is an idiot and doesn't like to make money or everything he is using is cheap and cutting corners, which still makes him a idiotic businessman. I thought the reason to sell offline or online was to make a profit. Why would anyone in business want to leave money on the table (unless you're Amazon or Google with super deep pockets)?
John S.
https://WiFlyFisher.com
https://WiFlyFisher.com
Wbranch on Jan 21, 2016January 21st, 2016, 4:20 pm EST
Wiflyfisher,
I don't know his business model, or his margin, but I'd bet after materials, salaries, shipping, etc. he is still a very good living. Both of these fly dealers have been on-line for at least a decade and probably sell hundreds of thousands of flies a year. Even if his profit is $.40 per fly he could be netting $80K - $120K per year. Not a bad salary.
Not wanting to be a ball buster but have you ever perused any of the on-line fly dealers? Out of respect to Jason's policy about links to other businesses I can't post the sites I am alluding to here. However if you were to PM me I would be gald to give them to you.
3) I gotta say - flies of the quality for $1.19 - either the guy is an idiot and doesn't like to make money or everything he is using is cheap and cutting corners, Neither, he is a smart businessman. He has the flies tied off shore. He, or his designess, flies to the off shore country. He provides not only all the materials, and hooks, but also samples and a skilled tier to train his foreign staff which still makes him a idiotic businessman. I thought the reason to sell offline or online was to make a profit. Why would anyone in business want to leave money on the table
Not wanting to be a ball buster but have you ever perused any of the on-line fly dealers? Out of respect to Jason's policy about links to other businesses I can't post the sites I am alluding to here. However if you were to PM me I would be gald to give them to you.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
TNEAL on Jan 22, 2016January 22nd, 2016, 3:08 am EST
At $1.19 per fly, I would make an after taxes profit of about $.68.If I were capable of tying all 200,000 flies in a year myself, I would make a bit over 90K. If they are paying someone else, (I don't know how else they could operate) they are making far less. They would have to pay a reasonable wage to people who have a commercial tying speed otherwise no one would make anything. Commercial fly tying comes under the federal tax law called excise tax. 10% of the sales price is automatically paid to the fed quarterly. Then we have SEP tax, state and possibly local tax as well as federal income tax. Materials cost routinely run around 20%; sometimes more. These people either have them tied off shore or do something additional for their actual living.
TNEAL on Jan 22, 2016January 22nd, 2016, 3:16 am EST
sorry, bad math. the after taxes take would be a bit over $135,000K, most of which would still have to go for a wage.
Wbranch on Jan 22, 2016January 22nd, 2016, 6:21 am EST
These people either have them tied off shore or do something additional for their actual living.
I have stated that fact at least once, and likely twice, but don't want to re-read my posts.
Neither, he is a smart businessman. He has the flies tied off shore. He, or his designees, flies to the off shore country.
Since the tying is done off shore with local labor he is likely paying a wage that you and I would consider criminal. Yet in that country it is likely considered to be a good living wage. If the annual income of a person in country X is $3000 and the tier is making more than everyone comes out smiling.
It's not like he is doing anything wrong. Go to any big box store and look at the country of origin for virtually any product and I'd bet at least half of them (non food items) are made in China, Sri Lanka, or some other non USA country.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
Crepuscular on Jan 22, 2016January 22nd, 2016, 6:30 am EST
Buy local. Supporting the economies of those communities and people who live close to the fishery is important. Ultimately those are the people that play a major role in supporting the conservation and the health of the waters you like to fish. If the local communities do not see a direct financial benefit from supporting the local fishery and the conservation efforts put forth in their community, they may not have a reason to care. If that happens there may be no voice or action for restoration and conservation of the waters and the fish we love to pursue. Conservation efforts aren't cheap, it costs a lot of money to get work done and fight the good fight.How much are you really saving? I haven't bought a fly in years. So I don't know the exact cost of a dry fly, but a quick internet search of Orvis flies shows a nymph can cost $1.17-$2.75 $2.25-$2.75 for dry fly. Assuming a locally tied fly that you buy in a shop is at the top end of the Orvis prices ($2.75) then, if you order a dozen flies @$1.19 via the internet (I'll pretend there is no shipping cost) vs. 12 @ $2.75 that is a difference of $18.72. Now, that $18.72 get's put back into the local economy. Maybe that fly shop donates money a local conservation organization, or wounded warriors or casting for recovery etc., see where I'm going here? It is up to the individual what they do with their money, but I'd like to hope that most fly fisherman would like to have places to fish, and the traveling fly fisherman would like to have places to stay, restaurants to eat in, (bars to drink in) etc. That $18.72 goes directly back to the local community. If no one supports that economy it all goes away. Like I pointed out I have not bought a fly in years but I don't think I'm too hypocritical, I know I've spent more than a couple bucks in fishing towns from Mexico to Massachusetts...
Wbranch on Jan 22, 2016January 22nd, 2016, 10:36 am EST
Okay, if you want to buy flies locally because you think it is the right thing to do, or it is going to help the community, then by all means go for it. It is your dime, or dollar, or Abe Lincoln. But if you don't want to buy locally I don't think you should lose any sleep over it or be chastised by the proponents of "Support your local Fly Shop" either.
I have been tying flies for decades and enjoy tying (I'm actually starting my 2nd dozen Clouser Minnow today) and while I try to tie every single style and technique of fly I think I will need for my fishing there are a few types of flies I just either hate to tie, or just haven't applied myself enough to learn the skill to tie them myself.
So in addition to the 99% of the flies I tie myself I augment the other 1% with store bought flies. Since I have limited amounts of disposable income in retirement I need to the biggest bang for my buck. So shoot me but I'm still going to spend $10 - $20 a year on Mr. Mike's Zippity-Do-Da On-Line Fly Shop. Just the facts.
BTW I help support the economies of two hamlets along the Delaware River corridor. I contribute to a grade school program in Hancock, I buy groceries in Hancock, I dine out in Hancock, and pay shuttle fees there too. I pay over $1000 in property taxes in the local town in PA where my cabin is located as well as at least that much more in other services. I have no regrets about not buying flies from the local fly shops.
I have been tying flies for decades and enjoy tying (I'm actually starting my 2nd dozen Clouser Minnow today) and while I try to tie every single style and technique of fly I think I will need for my fishing there are a few types of flies I just either hate to tie, or just haven't applied myself enough to learn the skill to tie them myself.
So in addition to the 99% of the flies I tie myself I augment the other 1% with store bought flies. Since I have limited amounts of disposable income in retirement I need to the biggest bang for my buck. So shoot me but I'm still going to spend $10 - $20 a year on Mr. Mike's Zippity-Do-Da On-Line Fly Shop. Just the facts.
BTW I help support the economies of two hamlets along the Delaware River corridor. I contribute to a grade school program in Hancock, I buy groceries in Hancock, I dine out in Hancock, and pay shuttle fees there too. I pay over $1000 in property taxes in the local town in PA where my cabin is located as well as at least that much more in other services. I have no regrets about not buying flies from the local fly shops.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
Oldredbarn on Jan 22, 2016January 22nd, 2016, 10:53 am EST
It's not like he is doing anything wrong. Go to any big box store and look at the country of origin for virtually any product and I'd bet at least half of them (non food items) are made in China, Sri Lanka, or some other non USA country.
...and this may have something to do with why many areas of the US look more "Third World" than the places we actually consider the Third World.
Was out chasing birds towards Jackson Michigan yesterday and found myself on some back roads and the living conditions of some in this country are pretty piss-poor. The school buildings here in the inner city of Detroit are in such bad disrepair they should just be bulldozed over. No money...
I know we are just talking about the manufacture of fishing flies, but the companies that made their fortunes here in the US, because of the business environment that existed here, had little to no loyalty to the good old USA...They have left their overseas capital abroad so they don't have to pay taxes here, and are dreaming about selling their widgets to the billions that live in Asia...
My office was in a transitional suburb here on the edge of suburbia and farmland...Half-a-million dollar homes going up next to old trailer parks...One of my insureds was a local teacher and she told me a story about a kid in her class that was living it a camper in the driveway of his grandma's home...They just ran an extension cord out to it from the house.
Sorry for this ramble...I know its out-of-place, but I'm just saying...It's a slippery slope.
The once great manufacturing plant that was the city of Detroit is a rusting hull of its former self...Not sure what this says, but from a strategic stand point, if the crap hits the fan, where do we get the arsenal to protect democracy? We import it?
Spence
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively
"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
"Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
Crepuscular on Jan 22, 2016January 22nd, 2016, 12:06 pm EST
But if you don't want to buy locally I don't think you should lose any sleep over it or be chastised by the proponents of "Support your local Fly Shop" either.
Absolutely! I was just trying to make an argument for buying local
BTW I help support the economies of two hamlets along the Delaware River corridor.
Wbranch on Jan 22, 2016January 22nd, 2016, 12:16 pm EST
Absolutely! I was just trying to make an argument for buying local
You have made some very poignant, and strong points, in favor of buying locally.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
Wiflyfisher on Jan 22, 2016January 22nd, 2016, 1:21 pm EST
Matt, sorry I am not trying to bust your balls.
But what I am trying to convey since in my 18 years doing e-commerce work on the web I have seen a lot of idiots.
I don't care where you buy the flies, offshore on made in the USA. Many fly shops supplement their fly inventory from Montana Fly who has them tied offshore. I get emails at WiFlyFisher.com from offshore - a dozen flies for $3.00.
There is a lot more to it then just selling some products over the web... ordering from vendors, handling incoming shipments, sorting the inventory, handling new orders, answering all the dang phone calls, order fulfillment and processing, credit card transaction fees, returns, updating the website, advertising costs, getting found online (SEO), accounting, taxes, etc. Get the picture?
I don't know where you guys get sales of 200,000 flies per year, but I will go with it for my example. What if instead you up that $1.19 price point by:
$0.10 x 200,000 flies = +$20,000
$0.20 x 200,000 flies = +$40,000
Do you want to work harder or smarter and gain longevity in business?
Orvis doesn't sell by price alone, neither do the other big players online. I have seen too many go belly up in less than a year trying to sell online with price alone.
For certain the fly shop owners work their a$$ off to stay afloat and "earn" your business.
I also feel strongly supporting the local fly shops because I would hate to have to buy all my fly fishing stuff from Cabelas and Bass Pro Shop.
Peace!
John
But what I am trying to convey since in my 18 years doing e-commerce work on the web I have seen a lot of idiots.
I don't care where you buy the flies, offshore on made in the USA. Many fly shops supplement their fly inventory from Montana Fly who has them tied offshore. I get emails at WiFlyFisher.com from offshore - a dozen flies for $3.00.
There is a lot more to it then just selling some products over the web... ordering from vendors, handling incoming shipments, sorting the inventory, handling new orders, answering all the dang phone calls, order fulfillment and processing, credit card transaction fees, returns, updating the website, advertising costs, getting found online (SEO), accounting, taxes, etc. Get the picture?
I don't know where you guys get sales of 200,000 flies per year, but I will go with it for my example. What if instead you up that $1.19 price point by:
$0.10 x 200,000 flies = +$20,000
$0.20 x 200,000 flies = +$40,000
Do you want to work harder or smarter and gain longevity in business?
Orvis doesn't sell by price alone, neither do the other big players online. I have seen too many go belly up in less than a year trying to sell online with price alone.
For certain the fly shop owners work their a$$ off to stay afloat and "earn" your business.
I also feel strongly supporting the local fly shops because I would hate to have to buy all my fly fishing stuff from Cabelas and Bass Pro Shop.
Peace!
John
John S.
https://WiFlyFisher.com
https://WiFlyFisher.com
Wbranch on Jan 22, 2016January 22nd, 2016, 2:43 pm EST
Matt, sorry I am not trying to bust your balls.
But what I am trying to convey since in my 18 years doing e-commerce work on the web I have seen a lot of idiots.
I don't care where you buy the flies, offshore on made in the USA. Many fly shops supplement their fly inventory from Montana Fly who has them tied offshore. I get emails at WiFlyFisher.com from offshore - a dozen flies for $3.00.
There is a lot more to it then just selling some products over the web... ordering from vendors, handling incoming shipments, sorting the inventory, handling new orders, answering all the dang phone calls, order fulfillment and processing, credit card transaction fees, returns, updating the website, advertising costs, getting found online (SEO), accounting, taxes, etc. Get the picture?
I don't know where you guys get sales of 200,000 flies per year, but I will go with it for my example. What if instead you up that $1.19 price point by:
$0.10 x 200,000 flies = +$20,000
$0.20 x 200,000 flies = +$40,000
Do you want to work harder or smarter and gain longevity in business?
Orvis doesn't sell by price alone, neither do the other big players online. I have seen too many go belly up in less than a year trying to sell online with price alone.
For certain the fly shop owners work their a$$ off to stay afloat and "earn" your business.
I also feel strongly supporting the local fly shops because I would hate to have to buy all my fly fishing stuff from Cabelas and Bass Pro Shop.
Peace!
Okay, you can have the last words on the subject although when I made this post it was meant to be in a conciliatory manner to every poster to the thread.
You have made some very poignant, and strong points, in favor of buying locally.
Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
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