1. Troutnut Forum
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2. Specimen Discussion
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3. hook size (and chocolate duns, and old-timey mayfly family classifications)

thats about a size 32 right. i dont think i have any tippet that small

Hehe, that's a good bit smaller than a 32. I think you'll only need to imitate something this small when nymphing if you're "nymphing" for nymphs in the same sense that you could be "fishing" for fish.

If you find a hook that small, you could also use it for the water mite hatch.

Warren,
I believe Jason said it was an immature nymph, so it still had some growing to do! I would say tye it in a size #16.

Jason,
Thomas Ames labeled the 'chocolate dun' ..... Ephemerella needhami. @ bottom of 3rd. paragraph
ttp://www.thomasames.com/insects/article/wintercad/wintercad.htm
the little Chocolate Dun, Ephemerella needhami.

Ernest Schwiebert,Jr. has it in the family 'Baetidae'.
Is this still true today, or have they been re-classified?
John

Lots of things have been called "chocolate duns" by somebody at some point, including E. needhami. See my page on the Chocolate Dun common name for the whole list.

It seems like almost every mayfly was in the Baetidae at one point or another; at least the species which were first described long ago. Maybe one of the entomologists here can fill in the history on that, but I get the impression maybe all mayflies were considered to be in the Baetidae family sometime in the 1800s before they had been seriously studied.

Anyway, Eurylophella has been in the Ephemerellidae family for a long time, but that might not have been the case when Schwiebert was first writing.

Ephemerellidae was first recognized as a formal family in 1909. In 1935, it was recognized as a subfamily of the Baetidae. The group was again recognized as a family in 1954. People who put Eurylophella in Baetidae after '54 probably were using an old reference (The Biology of Mayflies. Needham, Traver & Hsu. 1935. Ithaca, NY: Comstock P) and had not kept current with the scattered papers associated with the science. I've seen recent field guides that still put Eurylophella and other "Ephemerellidae" in Baetidae. In the old system, Ephemeridae, Baetidae and Heptageniidae pretty much were it as far as families went. Alas, the days of olde...

Jason: If you wish to duplicate this to a new thread, please do so. The subject has drifted (pun intended) from hook sizes.

If John is referring to Schwiebert's Matching the Hatch, it was written in 1955 (the year of my birth) and it does follow the Ephemeridae/Baetidae/Heptageniidae structure of a much simpler time.

John,
You'll get confused a lot by following that old book, but one thing that will help is to check Taxon's website. He has done taxonomic updates for many popular fly fishing entomologies. If he has one for MtH, you could probably print it out and keep it inside the book for reference. Trust me, that will save a lot of frustrating translation!

Gonzo & John-

Unfortunately, I don't have taxonomic updates for Schwiebert's Matching The Hatch on my website, simply because I don't have that book. However I do have taxonomic updates for Schwiebert's Nymphs, which would likely include all (or most) of the taxa listed in MtH.

If John is referring to Schwiebert's Matching the Hatch, it was written in 1955 (the year of my birth) and it does follow the Ephemeridae/Baetidae/Heptageniidae structure of a much simpler time.

Gonzo........... Yes


Anyway, Eurylophella has been in the Ephemerellidae family for a long time, but that might not have been the case when Schwiebert was first writing.

Jason..... Thank you. I thought that might be the case.


Jason: If you wish to duplicate this to a new thread, please do so. The subject has drifted (pun intended) from hook sizes.

Konchu....I mentioned T. Ames and E. Schwiebert,Jr. because Warren posted under the photo of the 'chocolate dun'.....Eurylophella ......

Thanks.....

Well, the subject of hook sizes was a bit of a joke I think, and it has been addressed, so this thread can wander wherever it wants to. However, I will change the title of the thread to reflect the new directions.

John,

Just to be clear (and because I know how confusing this gets), the "chocolate dun" that Ames and Schwiebert refer to, Ephemerella needhami, is still a valid species name in the family Ephemerellidae. The "chocolate dun" of this thread, Eurylophella sp., is a different genus, but also in the family Ephemerellidae. Multiple-use common names are often the cause of confusion. (Think of all the species of various genera that fly fishers call "blue-winged olives.")

Gonzo,
Ok...... I didn't see that when I was looking at the different groups, but I see it listed now.
Ephemerella needhami.

T. Ames called it the 'chocolate dun', but E. Schwiebert didn't. His immatation was a 'dark ephemerella nymph' #16; the dun being the 'red quill'( male hendrickson). So I guess it was a 'dark hendrickson' to him.

Ok.......... I feel better now!