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3. furled leaders/highstick nymphing, Page 2

Adirman. Yes it does. It glows above the water and vanishes under the water, thus, the name, Vanish. I only use indicators in situations that there are no other ways to get good drifts. I just watch where my line enters the water. If it stops, darts from side-to-side, slows down, or does anything that looks unusual, I set on a fish or rock, weed. etc. That Vanish mono helps me find my leader.
Goose, Lastchance (Bruce)

Goose;

So your pretty good at strike detection w/o an indicator? That's commendable, really! I have another ? for you though:can you provide an example of a situation/scenario in which you cannot get a good drift w/o the indicator and therefore its needed?

Thanks,

Adirman

Hi Adirman. I'll try with an example here. If I'm fishing a long, deep run and the flow doesn't allow me to get a good right angle drift, I'll use a bobber type indicator. I'm talking about a run that's too wide for me to fish the seam on the far side properly. I can cast my nymphs over there, but the current doesn't allow my nymphs to sink to the strike zone. I feel by using a float, bobber or inidicator, whatever you want to call it, above my nymphs, it allows them to swing down at a right angle and get near the bottom. Does any of this make sense? Also, I'm no expert with indicators, but the float has to precede your nymphs through the run. I hope this helps in some way.
Goose, Lastchance (Bruce)

Goose -



I think you meant "precede the line tip".

A-man -

Indicators leading the flies is what you should try hard to avoid and what the set up mends are all about. Once the flies have settled a second or two, do a flip mend upstream to reset the indicator while disturbing the nymphs as little as possible. Depending on depth, weight of cast, and current speed, this may take two or more flip mends to anchor the indicator well upstream of the nymphs as they obtain depth. Finish with a stack mend behind the indicator to get a dead drift that will keep the indicator above the flies through the sweet spot. If you don't go through these steps the indicator will quickly float past the nymphs dragging them in an unnatural manner and pulling them up out of the zone. Then the line will start to bow and really get things moving. The important concept to understand is that as the nymphs get deep, they will be moving much slower than the indicator on the surface. I've watched from a high bank guys who didn't know how to mend properly. Adding more weight is not a good substitute for proper technique. Even with split shot added, they had their flies trailing the indicators less than a foot or so deep and five or six feet behind...

Regards,

Kurt

Goose,

Thank you for the example but also, consider what Entoman said. I'm thinking that he's right w/ the bobber indicator as I've experimented w/ it a bit this season my self to get a better feeling for its presentational(there's a word for ya!) effects on the nymphs below. I think you're right in your scenario that the bobber aids your presentation further away as it provides more of a vertical line for the nymphs to get deeper than w/o.But it seemed to me this past season w/ the thing-a-ma-bob setup, if it was leading the nymphs, it made them pull up and drift unnaturally as opposed to nymphs first, bobber last like Entoman is saying. Current is slower deeper so, sounds right, but either way, excellent disussion! Let me also pose another ? if I may:have either of you guys (or anyone for that matter!)ever used the coil indicators ala Euro/Czech nymphing? I used it last weekend for the 1st time and caught 3 and felt like I was doing ok but in that setup, your SUPPOSED to drift w/ rod/coil first leading the nymphs below! Whay the difference as opposed to the bobber indicator coming last?

A-man -



Apples and oranges... The European poacher method leads the fly but it is a "direct contact, close in" technique where if you have more than 3 or 4 ft of line beyond the rod tip you are doing it wrong. The flies are led with the rod tip, but that is the reason for the leader being all tippet so that it can cut and move slower than the surface current without disturbing the drift of the heavy nymphs below. Even so, the method is not to be fished below "even" with the angler. Even ultra fine tippet will lift and drag the heavy flies if allowed to drift below you.

Kurt

Entoman;

thanks buddy, good explanation! Not sure if I'll be a regular euro nymphing kind of guy anyway, cuz to me, it doesn't feel like "real" flyfishing, no real casting and what not, but, its ok and can be VERY effective in certain situations as you already know!

You're welcome. I agree with the sentiment... But I have to admit it can be a real vacuum in the right circumstances!:)

Kurt,

I love it when you are in a sharing mood! You have really loaded this thread up with some "schooling"...If I could get you to expand on this a bit though I'd appreciate it. Your brain is wonderful to pick and I haven't even been doing the picking! :)

1) What do you mean by this? "The European poacher method"...

2) "But I have to admit it can be a real vacuum in the right circumstances!:)" I think explaining this one would interest me...Maybe you could explain what's going on in that foot or two above the bottom of the stream...What are those "right circumstances"?



Adirman...I'm not sure what you mean here. I have admitted many times here to being primarily a dry-fly-guy, but...

My fishing partner will catch fish when the rest of us are being skunked. I suspect it is because, like Kurt, he understands what going on below the surface...What type of habitat he is standing in and what critters are living there and how they behave. He then adapts his fishing technique to that...Having all these "styles" at your command will make you a well rounded angler and you will catch fish.

I used to fish this stretch of river where a female angler shared a cottage with her husband...There was a sweet run there in front of their place that she would nymph and I'd sit there in awe at her casting skills and the number of fish she pulled from that run...She worked it like a machine.

My buddy has fished his whole life and has used just about every form of fishing from bait through ice fishing and was known as the best dry-fly-guy here in this state...But he can out nymph most. The fly fishing boys that know him are stunned when I tell him one of his nicknames is Blue-gill Bill.

I guess I'm admitting that matching the hatch should be called matching the form of food they are taking...They may not actually be "hatching". The alternative is sitting on the bank with Spence in the old English gentlemen's form waiting for the trout to feed up top.

Really good thread boys! This is what I signed up for.

Spence

Hey Spence,



So you're a pea picker are you?



It's the name for a method as old as the hills rooted in tactics used by the old time pro bait fisherman from days of yore who supplied the restaurants and markets. It really knows no geographic boundries. With the fall of the Soviet Union, the West became accessible to eastern Europeans who adapted these tactics to fly fishing in a resourceful way. Around the same time, abhorrent "fly fishing contests" began to spring up and these guys from the old Soviet satellite states came over and promptly kicked everybody's butts. The promoting class in our fraternity quickly glommed onto it as the next big wave. It doesn't really matter who coined the term "Czech nymphing" but it seems pretty obvious to me that it was quickly and universally adopted as much more paletable to the market's sensibilities than calling it the European poacher method as it was first described. I don't think the Poles and Slavs think much of the name.:)

In reality, it's just a "close in" method for runs and seams that are better fished across. Rock studded riffles and runs are better suited to upstream high sticking or the "aggressive wading" approach made famous by Ted Fay who was a legend on the upper Sac back in the 60's. They're all essentially the same approach with subtle changes in tackle and line manipulation to match the water and conditions. Using a non-tapered leader has always been the best for this close in fishing but modern tippet material has made possible the use of ultra fine leaders that can still control decent fish. This is what makes the method so deadly.



That's just a slang metaphor for catching all the fish.:)



This isn't spring creek stuff. Most of the freestone streams I fish are varied in the type of water I'll fish in a day. A long time ago I figured out that certain techniques worked best in certain curcumstances and certain water types. Until I came across a fast change rig storage method (mentioned before I think), I used to just rig up with a method that: a. I was in the mood for, and/or b. I thought would work. Then I would just skip the water where the rigging would make fishing it a waste of time. For many years now I've approached things differently.

Lets say I'm working up a rock garden during high water with little chance of real dry fly activity (like I did a lot this spring). I'd probably high stick it with some attractors or stonefly nymphs. Now assume at the head of this garden is a long sweeping run with a small shelf or drop-off running a little over hip depth along its length. I'll quickly switch rigs and fish through with a poacher (Czech) rig if I can get close enough without spooking the fish. If I need to fish further back, I'd probably use a hinged indicator rig. Sometimes I may wait on these methods until after trying the edges with a dry fly for a little bit in case there's something I'm missing. Fishing back through later in the day heading for the car or trail, I may put on a swing rig to work the shallows and slots with an emerger or streamer. Depends a lot on the conditions and my mood or "hunch" as it were. If I started working downstream, I would reverse the order of techniques. This is the short form answer anyway.



Usually not much... Most of the action is pretty close to the bottom or near the surface in my experience. That doesn't mean that fish won't respond to flies higher in the column though. Most guys are unaware how much slower water moves lower in the column. Most objects on the bottom have a small cushion where the water hardly moves at all and you want to keep your flies above that. I visualize the stream structure as if the surface was a clear piece of glass with only air underneath it. I see the rocks and ledges and the fish holding there. Then I just try to feed 'em. On streams I'm really familiar with my imagination pictures it pretty accurately. On water I'm unfamailiar with I think I get pretty close, though I don't think that is as important as trying to visualize for confidence. This doesn't mean that I ignore the surface. You can tell a lot about what's going on down there by observing the currents.

Regards,

Kurt

P.S. - Talking about swift water reminded me of some ideas about the reasons heptageniids are shaped the way they are. Over the years of observation I've come to the conclusion that it may have more to do with hiding in nooks on rock surfaces and the ability to scurry between tight squeezes than deflecting currents. I've seen crawlers and swimmers holding on to rocks exposed a foot or so under pretty swift surface currents without any apparent effort, even walking around. I'm really interested to hear thoughts from others on this.

Yep. Entoman is correct. "Precede the line tip." Oops. Thanks for catching my mistake.

No biggie; if you switch back and forth between using a bobber type indy vs the coil sighter, sometimes its hard to keep it straight. Last time I used the bobber, I forgot too and started "coil fishing" with the bobber and line proceeding as in the coil/sighter method.

Hey Bruce,

Did you accidentally post a comment meant for another thread? I was referring to Goose's typo. I seem to remember us all having this conversation somewhere else recently, so perhaps I'm missing something.

Regards,

Kurt

Spence;

I've actually changed my mind a bit regarding my earlier comment. Euro/czech nymphing is "fly-fishing" and is actually quite challenging for many reasons. I'm just saying that it's not like "classic" fly-fishing where there's alot of casting, retrieving, etc. Don't get me wrong as I use this method too and its very effective from time-to-time. I just simply enjoy catchin' 'em on dries a little more is all!

Entoman;

I would like your opnion on something please regarding the correct drift alignment of flies using the bobber. In the latest American Angler (Jul/Aug), article by Aaron Jasper, he discusses this but he describes having the bobber lead! I wonder if this is because his method also employs use of several split shot which tick along the bottom w/ flies trailing and drifting just up from the bottom a few inches or so. I thought it would cause an unnatural drift like you said. In Jaspers method, I guess the flies are not pulled at all by the bobber but by the shot below and in fron of them so it doesn't matter. What do you think?

I think don't believe everything you read.:) As I said before, excessive weight is not a good substitute for proper technique.

Kurt

A-man,

Although I haven't read the AA article you mentioned, it sounds like the author is describing an "overweighted" technique. (Just my name for it, not a pejorative.) Another example of an overweighted technique is the downstream loop mend often recommended by guides on Alaska's Kenai. Some advantages of that technique are very long drifts and good "indication" (slight tension between the shot and the indicator) throughout most of the drift. Disadvantages are using more weight (and often larger indicators) and sacrificing some reach across the stream for long-distance drifts downstream.

Beware of hard-and-fast rules about indicator/fly relationships. Following them too rigidly will probably put your fly in the wrong place about as often as they put the fly in the right place. There are indicator techniques in which the indicator should be mended above (upcurrent from) the shot/fly, techniques that depend on mending the indicator below (downcurrent from) the shot/fly, and other relationships or combinations. Every angler develops preferences (and prejudices), but all of these techniques can work well in the right situations and can fail miserably when applied to the wrong situations. Some anglers even prefer to skip the shot and the nymph entirely and just fish with the "indicator" (also known as "dry-fly fishing"). :)

Best,
Lloyd

Gonzo...You so funny!!! You know we can't let this one just slide over the plate without taking a swing at it...:)

I think that a few of us, of the "dry-fly" camp, should be commended for lying rather low with this thread...I didn't hear one nasty comment about "glorified snagging rigs" or "might as well fish with worms"...;)

Spence

Ha! I don't think you can be commended for not saying what you just said, Spence. (Is that what Louis calls "apophasis"?) However, I'd have been very disappointed if I didn't get a "rise" out of you. :)

Gonzo;

Your description is most accurate of the method he's describing and I like your advice about hard and fast rules. Preferences and and style probably trump "the best method for this scenario" type of thinking in fly-fishing anyway and I'm with you! As was said earlier in the thread however, its always nice to acquire new skills and techniques, not only to increase your catch rate, but to keep your fishing experience new and fresh!