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3. Little Juniata, Page 2

I am always intentionally vague about all but the largest streams that can take the most pressure. I simply am not going to post on a national fishing forum the names of my favorite trout streams, let alone specific location info. If it's a larger more well known stream (which I think the Juniata is, I don't know much about PA and I've heard of it before this thread), I might share the name of the river and a general stretch of it (upper, middle, lower), but I try not to get too specific. Now on my blog that gets read by about 3 people every year, I may give more info, but even there I'm careful.

But I don't really blame the people that do say too much. Mostly they are just trying to be helpful and divulge too much info in the process. I've done it before and have learned my lesson the hard way.

"I don't support people giving exact directions to certain spots on a forum, PM's are for that. I will never mention certain streams that I fish either. I just don't see why posting temperature info on one of the most popular streams in PA is so harmful." - Did anyone read this? In my opinion all of you guys continuing this thread discussiing the Little J is "outing" the stream more than I did.

"check out the jittle j river assoc web site to see what a wild brown trout fishery it really has become..." - That wasn't me that posted this first.

The Little J is my home water, and I have no problem with anyone posting temperature info about. As I already said what I posted is readily available from several different websites, and if you call certain fly shops they'll give you the same info along with alot more.

This is 2010 last I checked and whether anyone agrees with it or not the internet is here to stay. For you old school guys, weren't there several books published discussing the Little J? People talk about streams, it happens everday. If it didn't happen we would all be miserable fishing the same couple of streams. What's the big deal if someone wants to get online and do some research on stream? I personally don't have the time to sit around all day looking at books and maps to try and figure out which streams to fish.

I'm just going to go back to reading this forum instead of posting, thanks for all of the great info guys.

P.S.- Several other forum members named all of these streams before I did, why not the bitterness towards them?

Come on Matt...I don't think anyone wants to run you off here. It just appears that the "Guard Dogs of the Little J" are growling a bit...It's going to be ok. They have got your attention but haven't drawn any blood.

I have a friend that has always had a work schedule where he was able to fish in the middle of the week. He would tell me about all these "secret spots" and I would head on over the following weekend to find a couple hundred guys standing there in his "secret spot"! Good rivers are unable to hide from us and sooner-or-later someone's going to be standing in your "honey-hole".

Just this past weekend I fished a local small-mouth river that I have haunted since 1991...I use to be alone over there for years and fishing dries during what I was certain were secret hatches that only I was hip to. Several years back a guy writes a book and now there's even a blog and a fishing club dedicated to this stream.

I'm sitting in a little parking area, which is a couple years new, and a young fly fisherman approached me to say hello. He then proceeded to give me the "low-down" on the stream..."Are you on the blog?"..."No"..."You should really check it out!" I just smiled and asked him if he was heading up or downstream...

Where I ended up I was all alone and once the White Flies and a few Iso's started to trickle off I was doing just fine thank you! I decided to call the spot Spencer's Pool...Well it was that night anyway...

If we all just chill a moment and re-read the etiquette sections of all the angling books we have ever read and not just skip this but take it to heart it will all work out. We are just going to have to learn how to put up with each other whether we use new technology or old...The population of the planet isn't contracting any time soon.

This is coming from a guy who once was so territorial someone within eye sight would mess with my fishing experience...Even if he was way way upstream...A good friend of mine who is a guide finally reeled me in on this and was able to make me see myself in the mirror and realize how out-of-line I had become...He did it with humor and I've always been able to laugh a bit at myself...and I'm a happier angler for it.

Part of his lesson was this...Perfect your casting. This was number 1. Learn everything you possibly can about the hatches on your home water...Preferably from onstream experience. Your own experience. Maybe keep a log...Wander away from access sites. With your flies tie things to cover what you know and for each stage of it's life...Basically the better you become as an angler the less it matters who may be on the stream with you...You will out fish them anyway.

One night years back I had fished above a popular access site. It was the Friday evening before Memorial Day...I had parked at a bridge that was way downstream, walked up the road a mile to the access site and headed upstream, knowing I'd get down to the bridge eventually.

As it was getting dark I had rounded the bend there at this access site and found two guys standing there...I nosed behind them and noticed one of them had a creel...I reminded him he was still in the no-kill stretch and moved down...I got down a ways and saw in the dark two more anglers below me looking like they were going to walk down to the bridge as well. Next to me was a small island and sitting at the dock of his cottage was another guy in an Au Sable river boat looking like he was waiting for the two below us to get down a ways before he shoved off...

I was pinned in! What to do? Nothing to do but fish and I took a 16" Brown on a size 18 dorothea spinner pattern and he put a nice bend in my rod...The old Hardy squalked! When I got him to hand I held him up in the air a moment, when I realized all these guys were now watching me, and I shouted in the dark..."Hey guys! You missed one!" :)

So I for one don't want you running off mad Matt...I know there's a good chance I myself may never see the Little J and maybe this coming from another state don't much matter, but after we all just take a deep breath we will realize no ones hurt here and we are all still here and so's the river...

This Little J must be a nice place and well loved...Nothing wrong with that, eh!

Spence

Matt (Tuna), I did indeed read this and that's why I responded as I did, saying I don't see any harm in what you proposed. Please note that Bruce (Lastchance) and Tony (Gutcutter) only warned against posting specific locations, while B.J. (SlateDrake) was the only one who seemed uncomfortable about even posting generalizations such as upper river, middle river, lower river, etc. I do understand and respect his perspective, and as anyone on this forum who has fished with me will tell you, I'm very secretive about specific spots on streams, but I'll note outright that my friends who are up there tell me that the lower Little J. has been and may continue to be too hot to fish on warmer days for some time. Anyone thinking about fishing the J should carry a thermometer and use it. I'll be up there tomorrow and the next day and I am willing to deal with any increased pressure on the middle section of the river, which remains cooler where the springs come in (if I'm fishing there instead of some of the smaller spring creeks in the general area that are still plenty cold). I will leave it to individuals to learn the locations of those springs and cooler creeks, though. I hope to meet you sometime and swap some lies. PM me this evening if you'll be fishing the next two days and perhaps we can hook up. Also, since I haven't been up for a while, I'd be interested in your temperature readings. If you're willing to share them, you can PM me if you prefer.

My comments weren't meant to be combative and I meant no harm. Thousands of people know about the Little J so it's no secret. I never liked the idea of posting specific locations on public forums. It just adds to the fishing pressure.
Bruce

While keeping some streams on the down low can be beneficial, sometimes it can be their downfall.

If noone knows about them. then no one will come to their defense...pollution,siltation, and over-development can ruin a trout stream in short order. I can think of one stream in my region that most likely would not contain trout if it had been kept secret. Just food for thought.

I've never been to the Juniata, let alone fished and my question is slightly off topic but directly relates to this stream: I think i read in the Flyfisherman mag.,last yearmaybe, that there were some property rights issues goin on in PA, esp. in regards to the Juniata; in other words, landowners/private prop. vs. public fishing rights stuff that was gettin kinds ugly at 1 point. Anyone have an update on this or, do I even have the right stream in mind?

Thanks
Adirman

You have the right stream, Adirman. A local, highly-exclusive fishing club was trying to buy up access rights around the river and then post it. It was finally decided by the courts that the stream was navigable and therefore illegal to post. So the public has access as long as people stay in the stream and don't walk onto the privately owned banks. It was a huge victory for public water rights in PA.

-Shawn

FYI. Great news on the LJ. Most of the trout wild...and lots of them!

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/images/reports/2010bio/7x08_26ljun.htm

This has been made possible by Bill Anderson and all others that have worked very hard to conserve and enhance the River. Thanks to all that have helped.

Thanks for your reply; I have another question: As far as you can tell, how do most people feel about the outcome? In other words, were most people on the side of the public or the landowners, or, somewhere in-between? I can tell you that although I'm generally pro public fishing per-say, I can see the other side! I've gone to public streams/rivers lakes, etc. many times to find trash in and out of the water, people catching and keeping everything, rude behavior etc. Although this which i've decribed is the exception and not the norm it still happens often enough to be of concern.

thanks again,
Adirman

I think every one except for the club members who paid $60,000 to acquire the rights to fish private waters was happy. A recent Fly Fishing Chronicles tv show was filmed on Little J and Spruce. They were (of course being free guests) going on and on about all the positive stream work this club was doing. I guess if you consider moving down manicured paths for members and installing wireless cameras to remotely watch for people walking the banks stream improvements then the club has done lots of "great" work. The other stream improvement they perform is stocking tons of fat pellet pigs over the wild trout in this stream, which the recent PFBC survey shows to be a tremendous wild trout fishery.

The other stream improvement they perform is stocking tons of fat pellet pigs over the wild trout in this stream, which the recent PFBC survey shows to be a tremendous wild trout fishery.

I read in a study on the Madison that hatchery fish displace the natural pecking order in a stream, because they are not used to having to fight for their food with a steady abundant supply of pellets. Causing the normally dominant larger wild fish to be displaced from their normal feeding lies which in turn actually hurt the stream more than helping it. I know it is a little off topic but, any thoughts??

I wish there were some way to stop it. Jdaddy's comment on stocking "fat pellet pigs" being an "improvement" is obviously ironic. I know at least one state in the midwest has stopped stocking or greatly reduced it, and its wild fisheries have thrived.

I'm very happy that Donnie Beaver lost the court case. He was buying up leases up and down the J. and many miles of access could have been lost for those who didn't have the thousands to join his "club."

Passing on the word that Beaver has not helped the river, but harmed it, can aid in puncturing his propaganda bubble. He either does not know the damage he is doing, or does not care, but his influence on the Little Juniata has not been beneficial to its wild fish.

Oh, come on now. Donny Beaver is a conservationist. He bought up all of the access on so many of those steams so future generations will have trout fishing available. At least that's his selling point to anyone that's willing to believe it. He's doing it on many streams in PA, Ohio, Colorado for sure and possibly in NY and MT from what I've heard. Such a great guy to save those streams from us poor slobs that can't afford to pay $80,000 plus a yearly fee, plus guide fees, plus a beat fee each time to fish.

Don Beaver = Wild Trout Killer. Like everyone else said he's a great guy, saving streams for the future. The future millionaires, that is. I personally have never witnessed or noticed anything he's done to improve a stream. But, hey if you want to catch fat rainbows that will take just about anything, feel free to join his organization and have at it. I just wish landowners could find a way to never be put in a position where they have to lease to him. It's like he looks for people in financial trouble along better streams and then puts them in a position where they have to lease to him. Money talks. I gotta stop ranting before I get out of hand, sorry guys.

Matt,

The occassional rant is ok, especially when it's in support of wild-trout! :)

Spence

i would be o.k. with divulging the exact location of all property on the little j that 'the don' owns or leases so that everybody can catch his fish and annoy his staff and members. his "guides" have tried to run me out several times and when they call over to me, i act as if i'm deaf. none of them has had the balls to touch me - yet.

The thing to remember about Don Beaver and a good tool for explaining to folks what his agenda really is is to show them that he has both feet firmly planted in the anti-resource property rights movement.

He's on the board of this one, which arose in my home town in the 80's over the scuffle a local farmer/natural gas developer got into with EPA, PGC, (at the time..) DER and USF&W when the guy filled in some wetlands on the highest biomass wild brown trout stream in PA's Allegheny drainage. The case was probably the biggest motivating factor in the Ridge Administration's splitting of DER into DEP and DNCR. Tom (the local congresscritter at the time) was in their corner, although he (as a quality guy) largely came to his senses later on.

Check out the Board of Directors Listing...

http://palandowners.org/

Lee,

I just visited some of the links you provided and ran in to this "gem" in an interview with one of the board members:



Wow! "On-lot sewage regulations"?! I guess he feels it's ok to do just about anything you damn-well-please...The crap will flow downstream anyway and won't be his problem...

We have had ongoing problems here in Michigan with some of the dams on our streams. Even when the courts have ruled that there should be "run-of-the-river" etc the folks running them do as they please. During spring thaw and heavy rains they blow everything over the dams messing with spawning beds, young smolts, and just about anything else that can't hang on. During dry spells they hold everything back nearly drying up the downstream flow and putting pressure on anything dependent on the water below the dams...All so the "property owner's" never have to step up or down to climb in to their boats moored at their docks...

I know some of us anglers can be xenophobic at times...It's all about the fish, but this stuff is narrow minded and selfish.

Spence

Exactly right, Lee, and, as Slate Drake points out, we're not just talking about the Little J. The club claims to "conserve over 30 miles of blue-ribbon Pennsylvania fly-fishing waters," and their claims about "wild" fish are just as misleading as their claims about "conservation." Check out reason #10 under their "Top Ten Reasons to Join":



On their sections of three "fertile tributaries near Lake Erie," the club and their members take advantage of steelhead runs created by the PF&BC and paid for by PA anglers while claiming that "These fish are wild, beautiful, and have given our members hours and hours of back-breaking, adrenaline-rushing fly-fishing experiences of a lifetime!" Of course, this privilege comes courtesy of the less fortunate anglers they show crammed shoulder-to-shoulder in the photo of "public steelhead fishing in Erie" that they use to contrast and promote their "private steelhead fishing in Erie on Spring Ridge waters."