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are the male and female E.subvaria nymphs identicle, or like the duns, different?

Dr. Ripepi,

Please forgive my skepticism, but I suspect you may be putting us on, as it seems to me that a medical doctor (like yourself) probably knows the answer to your question. However, I believe the answer is that a male and female Ephemerella subvaria nymph are different internally, but there are no obvious externally visible differences.

just seein' if anybody was out there.
seriously, though, i tie and fish a lot of floating nymphs and transitionals during the northcentral penna paraleps and hendrickson hatches (oh how i wish the q.g.would make a comeback). i can never tell or figure out why one nymph pops up pink/red and another identical nymph emerges light brown
i have pretty good eyes, but i can't really tell if they have a pair hanging down...

Dr. Ripepi-



Ah geez, now you've really done it. I simply can't let that statement just "hang out there." And, any response I make is sure to offend the sensibilities of my good friend, Louis.

Mayfly nymphs don't have any external genitalia, no matter how good one's eyes are, and male mayfly imagoes don't have gonads, but do have a pair of penes and a pair of claspers, which your pretty good eyes could probably see, especially with magnification.

excellent point.
i guess that explains why my light and dark hendrickson transitionals work equally well during the hatch.
i tie darks and lights with the same abdomen and same wing pad but different thorax.
i really doubt that there is a difference in how the trout chooses what to eat. i just really do it for myself for fun. i'm that kinda guy.
a mentor taught me many years ago (george harvey) that "when color matters, it matters the least"
i love the discussion and and sarcasm and i suspect there will be many more like it. i stir the pot a bit just to keep everybody thinking...
i have been tying/fishing stages for years but am really just getting started on the "subtle differences between the genus (geni?) within the species. i hope that you will be helping me out with this stuff
gut

G/C-

No problem. Actually genus is singular and genera is plural, and it's species (which is both singular and plural) within genus, but you're probably just stirring the pot again, anyway.

Roger & Tony,

I am almost afraid to jump in here because I may be missing something here...You see I was a Navy brat and we moved a great deal and somehow I always seemed to move to a new school just after they showed the boys their "Birds & the Bees" film...So, I've never been through that class and am pretty much "self" taught...

But anyway...Roger and I have had this discussion elsewhere on another thread where I was joking about fishing "immatures"...I can't remember where that was or I'd send you back to it. Considering just how many bugs a fish sees going by him every hour he may not decide to be so selective and a "light or dark" nymph, if fished naturally, has a good chance of equally inticing the trout to take it.

There are so many nymphs of every shape and size that the trout sees that there may be an argument to be made here that the only organism in this equation that's being selective is the angler.

I had a wonderful conversation last night on the phone with my fishing mentor. He was telling me about turning over rocks in late season in his favorite river to find zillions of tiny nymphs crawling around. He thinks they are the offspring of the spinners we may have been fishing to earlier in the season...Mini Henny's I think he called them. These guys are good at hiding but the literature on behavioral drift suggsts that a great many of these critters drift...May be due to over population or whatever.

I told my friend about an evening when I was fishing and I looked up and thought a fog had drifted in. It turned out to be a small spinner in numbers beyond belief. I was never comfortable with my streamside id-ing of these flies...I had told him this story before, but this time I was going out on a limb and said that I now think, though I will never know for sure, that they were spinners of E needhami...

Now, in the standard literature E needhami doesn't show up as a "Super Hatch" on the Au Sable...My friend said that there are so many different species running around up there and they hatch in a particular spot and lay their eggs in a particular spot and I may never be in the right place at the right time again to bump in to them ever again.

I then went on to tell him about a pattern I have come up with to cover the Brown Drakes I have seen stuck in their shucks up on the river...He asked me of the last time that I had a hatch up there large enough to let the trout really get in to a selective feeding pattern where it would matter if I fished a dun pattern or an emerger...It doesn't happen all the time that is for sure.

Maybe the trout would starve to death if they actually became as selective as we think they are. So, a generalist pattern, a close enough pattern, a general nymph in differnent sizes is all we really need to fool Mr. Pea-Brain.

Anyway...Generally the males of a particular mayfly species are smaller than the females...As to color...The variation we think we see could be diet in a particular stream, the color changing after the bug actually frees itself from the nymphal shuck, or we are simply misidentifying the bug we have in our hands.

I have seen guys fish during Hendrickson time and bullheadily (if that's a word)only toss Henny's...Even when the fish were sucking in Little Black Caddis...I don't want to say that trout aren't selective at times...I have had some colossal battles with some wily fish...But maybe we are overthinking this thing we do some...

In Eric Leiser's book on Stoneflies he talks of finding whitish nymphs and he believes that when a nymph goes through an instar it is quite dormant for a bit and of a paler color than normal. He actually talks of tying up a lighter bodied stonefly nymph to cover this. The guys on this site that have actually raised nymphs in aquariums know that the color of a bug isn't always static but changes as the insect changes...

Anyway! Sorry for the ramble...

Spence

Spence-



True, but probably not a reliable indicator of sexual identity.



Difficult to answer, as there can be a wide variation in the color of a given mayfly species of a particular instar found on (or under) the same rock.

that's some excellent info. on my local freestone creeks i tye my darks in 16 and my lights 14. always did it 'cause somebody said it was so many years ago. it has always (well usually) worked during the hendrickson hatch.
i also agree that we (or maybe just I) are way too consumed with this stuff than we should be for most situations. however in certain situations i.e. paradise valley spring creeks or pressured sections of the central penna limestoners it is very important. maybe that is why i do it routinely - so when i get in a tough situation i can attemt to figure it out.
this summer on armstrong's and nelson's (my first time there - no guide) i went through pmd after pmd until i found what they liked and then hooked a bunch before they began to ignor it. then i got to repeat the whole thing over again. then it was onto sulphurs in the afternoon/evening. i had a ball and caught a ton of fish every day and tied a couple dozen new patterns every night. i was way more successful than everybody i talked to on the streams (and i didn't even gloat). i really felt like i accomplished something. i'll bet you guys are pretty much the same.

Antonio,

A quick Armstrong's Spring Creek story...

First off they don't call it Paradise Valley for nothing, eh? What a beautiful spot on this planet!

I was planning a trip to Montana for the summer of 1995. I was worried about pre-planning and booked a day on Armstrong's almost a year in advance. I am a bit neurotic...Dutch on dad's side...German on moms. I called Armstrong's almost every week...I exagerate a bit here...But it's almost true.

When I first booked I was told by the woman who lives there that she had put me down in the book. I said are you going to send me a confirmation? She said, "No, you are in the book." I said what about a map...She said, "I'll give you a map of the river when you get here." "Uhh...I meant a map on how to get to your place."

I kept calling through out the year to make sure I was still in the book. Once I actually made it to Montana I called and asked her what time I could show up. She said, "Well we are a working ranch here and you can pretty much show up as early as you like".

I rolled in to the yard at 6:00am...I had to leave Ennis pretty damn early and hardly slept the night before because the fishing was so good on the Madison the evening before...But that's another story.

The back door was open and an old dog was laying in front of the screen door so I decided to go in. I walked through a utility room and as I entered the dining room, I was calling out as I went, "Anyone home?". A woman entered and was putting on her robe. I started to say, "I'm Spence...", and she said, "I know who you are! You pay me and there's the river that's how it works...Oh by the way...Here's your map!" Oops!

I headed to the river and there was a little lean-to type of structure with a picnic table etc. I put on my waders and noticed that in the pool almost right in front of this changing area that the fish were midging like crazy! I was on the river by 6:30 and catching some nice fish on 7x and a size 20 or smaller midge...I thought I'd died and was fishing in paradise..He, he!

Other folks started to show up for the ten o'clock PMD rise and there I was already standing in a honey hole grinning ear to ear...I had hardly moved since 6:30...It was storybook!

I had fished Depuy's earlier in the week as part of a Madison River Fishing Co three day deal and in 2004 I made it back and fished Nelson's...What a hat-trick!

Spence

P.S. On my way back to Ennis I was having a real hard time staying awake. In Bozeman I stopped at a Subways and bought a sandwich and a monster pop...Not because I was all that hungry but to force myself to talk with someone and try and get the haze out of my brain. I slept like a baby that night and I'd bet there was a smile on my face.