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3. Hooks, Page 2

I'm not saying there are not 20 inch fish in Spring Creek, but I've never caught one or seen anyone land one in the last 10 or 15 years. The biggest I ever caught was 18 inches. Most of them are 9 to 14 inches, I'd say, with some the occasional 14 to 16 inches. I don't mean to imply that because I don't catch them they don't exist because I'm not one of better fishermen. There are probably a couple that hit 20, but very, very few. Just my opinion.
Bruce

"Spring Creek definitely has fish that can straighten a hook."

Yea, maybe if it is poor temper or it is one of those old Mustad 98440 3x fine light wire dry fly hooks. But I agree with Bruce that most fish are much smaller. My fish seem to run in the 8" - 11" class and I get excited with a 12" - 14" fish! LOL. It's all relative after all. I have seen some 18" fish hiding in the shade in the stretch where Logan Branch enters the creek and have seen a few bolt from under the weeds that were likely 20" from a section that Louis likes to fish. But it's hard to accept any fish bending a good Tiemco 100 in any size unless the tippet is stronger than the bending moment of the hook steel.

I don't live close enough to SC to fish it very often. Another hour in the car will put me at my cabin on the WB but I do get up half a dozen times each season and have never caught a trout longer than 14".

I should let Shawn clarify, but he's AWOL. I think the hooks he was describing are size 18 and smaller fine wire Mustads. The biggest Spring Creek trout I've landed was 16", but I have hooked a few bigger ones, including one that I'm sure was 20 inches or larger. It took one jump then plunged down into some kind of sunken metal frame in the bottom of the hole I was fishing and cut the line neatly. A recent report on Flyfisher's Paradise discussion board cites several 18" fish landed a week or so ago. I didn't measure them, but I'd bet they were at least bigger than 15" unless they guy is an inveterate liar, or a fisherman.

So Louis do you plan on making the trek to SC in late February or early March for the Baetis?

Sorry for the tardy reply, Louis. For those who don't know Louis, he's normally a man of letters, but when it comes to hooks he has a way with numbers as well. He's also a bit of a hook connoisseur. Frankly, I'm amazed at his ability to remember all those silly code numbers these manufacturers randomly apply to their hook styles. I, on the other hand, have to look them up whenever I want to place another order or, in this case, tell someone what I tie on.

Rifling through some old boxes turned up a few common Mustad hook numbers: 90480 (dry fly hook), 90831 (dry fly hook), and 3365A (streamer hook). There have been others, for example a 2x long nymph hook I can't find the number for. As long as the hooks are big enough (size 12 and larger, I'd say), they usually don't suffer from what we'll call "the bends". But in the smaller sizes, all the dry or nymph hooks I've tried, regardless of style, suffer the bends. This consistently bad performance leads me to attribute the problem to bad or poorly tempered metal. Perhaps their new, fancy hooks are better, but they're also getting close to the price of hooks I already know are good (e.g., Tiemcos), so what's the point of trying them? It would be like test-driving the luxury version of the Yugo in hopes that it performs like a Camry - why bother?

-Shawn

Hi Shawn -


If it has a viking bend (slight hump in the middle of the bend & by far the most common) as apposed to a sproat (several obscure models), you are describing a Mustad #9671. Out West & back in the day, it was a very popular hook used on Trudes, Hoppers, and big stoneflies where a heavier wire was preferred for big water. I tied a gazillion Black Montana Nymphs, Sofa Pillows, Joe's Hoppers and Royal Trudes on that hook back in the '70's. It was and is a good hook, though the weak hollow ground point and giant barb are a pain.

Hope that helps,

Kurt

Thanks Shawn, but I don't always remember them. I am guilty of playing around with different hooks, though. A curse that I may overcome in time. Then, like Matt, I'll be unloading a few. Matt, I certainly will be fishing SC when the olives get started. There and then I hope to see Tony, Shawn, Bruce, you, and a few others who post here sometimes. It's come to be one of my spring rituals.

...not to mention the people you don't hope to see, which would include pretty much every flyfisherman you haven't mentioned by name.

-Shawn

Damn right, Shawn, with a few exceptions such as John Dunn or John Williams, who haven't been on here a lot lately. Let's hope some fluke of nature puts the rest off when we're heading that way. It has happened. But not very often. Most days, we'll just have to arrive early, stake our spots, and throw some nymphs till the wings show up.

Hey Spence -


I largely agree with this statement with a few exceptions. One is the old Mustad 94833. In my opinion the damn things were/are abominations. I remember the season back in the '70's when I got the bright idea to tie dry flies with them in place of the tried & true '40's because they would "float" so much better. Big mistake... I remember vividly the first time I tried them on a favorite medium sized stream just up from where it enters a lake. It had pretty good flow and the fish were working well to a #14 Sulfur hatch. Three nice fish in a row bent them out on the first run. I was using 3 lb. 5X Maxima (the equiv. of modern 7X), as there was no "super-strong" stuff back then. It wasn't simply a bad batch, either. I had several supplies from different sources and time periods. Upon testing them, they were all found to be incredibly weak. Those things caused me one hell of a recall. Lesson learned...

Somebody also mentioned that Mustad hook points are prone to curling, and they're right. This is due to the nature of a hollow ground point common on most Mustad hooks. It's something we had to live with unless you wanted to spend a lot of dough on spottily available Partridges.

Yes...2xfine...Could end up "the weakest link"...:)

I think in it's newer version they may have gone to a "micro-barb" but an angler would still have to keep this hook's weakness in mind when playing a nicer fish...

My friends that tie for a living...(Wait a minute, is that really possible? :)) They love to poke fun at me for still using the clunky barb that exists on the older Mustads, especially in the larger sizes, but it seems that I must of purchased them by the truck load in the old days and am too cheap to toss them...I have drawers filled with them...

Matt mentions somewhere here the old 9671 and tying certain dry flies on it...I still have recipes from years back, given to me by friends, using this hook in that way...Some of our larger stones for example..."The Mattress Thrasher" comes to mind. (9671 is similar to the Tiemco 5262 that Barr uses for his Copper John).

Some of the older local boys love looking in these drawers of mine because there are some ancient boxes in there from an old sporting goods store that was known as Geake's that was a landmark here in Detroit until they finally folded a decade ago. His boys ran the place but "old man Geake" still hung out there...This place was on Woodward and I couldn't tell you when it actually opened...It pre-dates me...When they went under guys swarmed over the going-out-of-business items like ants at a picnic all the while crying like babies because one of their sanctuaries was disappearing. I should take a few pictures of the boxes..I'd bet that Matt or Paul would remember some of it...Ungodly long streamer hooks & salmon irons, and egg pattern hooks...:) (What are the chances this dry-fly-guy will ever get back to tying something on these?)

We all bought everything there, pre-dated big box stores & the internet...
If the old man handed you something and told you to use this, you did. I still have insulated bib-over-alls from there I use when I ice fish...Like new...Well close enough. :) Neo-waders & my first pair of Red-Ball "Ultra-Lites"...I'm getting tears in my eyes as I write this...Damn! I would stop in just to stop in...The old man would take me in to the back-room sanctuary and it was paradise..."All it takes is money, kid!" ;) The whole rear corner of the store was fly tying materials...It was the inter-sanctum back there. :)

I know guys who happened to meet each other in Geakes back in the 70's when they were kids, they were happy to find someone else who was actually tying like they were, and are still close friends today. My mentor purchased his Thompson "A" way back then and tied commercially with it until just a few years ago...He would only change the jaws...We lost something when we lost these old great places...IMHO.

There were a few years in there where I wasn't sure if I was ever going to walk upright again let alone bend over a tying desk. That is more likely the cause for me not tying on those discontinued Roman Moser & Marinaro Midge hooks...:) Those years in the desert have left a gap...I now own a great many of the newer Mustads and the far east hooks.

I have found some bad hooks from time-to-time that unfortunately made it passed the inspection process...Bad flat or fused points etc...Like you, I have probably handled a zillion or two hooks in my time...There's bound to be a few bad apples.



Ok...Maybe we can just call this hyperbole...:) Spence painting with a wide brush...Trying to force a point.

Spence

Sorry for the walk down memory lane...I have had my grandfather on the brain for some reason lately...Cold crisp clear winter mornings I guess...In the 60's he would take me in to these cool old outdoor stores up north in these little towns...Wooden floors, walls of rifles and shot-guns, boxes of shells, flanel and red hunting jackets...He would buy me a small game tag and a box of shells for my .410...I'd drop just about everything to walk the swamp across from my grandmothers farm with him and the beagle again...Fresh coat of snow and bunny tracks...

I actually still have some Herter's hooks.

OK, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to both: a) agree with the other guys here, and b) clarify my earlier statement:

When I said "fish" in my earlier post, I didn't mean "trout". I meant "longnose gar".

Anyone who has never fished Spring Creek (but is thinking of doing so), should know that reports of trout in Spring Creek have been grossly exaggerated. I'm of the opinion that Spring Creek doesn't actually hold ANY trout, much less big ones. People seeking trout on Spring Creek are bound to be disappointed, and should instead skip it and proceed to better water. Try the Juniata River below Lewistown; I have heard it is full of large trout. (NOTE: You want the Juniata River proper, not the Little Juniata River - the Little Juniata is even more barren than Spring Creek). I've been told that a good rule of thumb for trout on the Juniata River is as follows: if you don't find trout, head further downstream.

If you do happen to find yourself at Spring Creek, you should definitely share the above information with all other anglers you encounter - they have a right to know where to go to actually catch trout. In a perfect world, there would be nobody fishing Spring Creek (except for that one time each summer when I come up there to try and catch gar, or course). ;-)

I too have perhaps been misunderstood. When I said Spring Creek I was thinking of the one that runs through Hershey PA. Yes, there's a gold course on it, and few people fish it, but that's why there are some big trout there. Just duck if you hear, "fore." Now Duane is talking about a different Spring Creek, one in Central Pennsylvania. But he's right about that one. Avoid it if you're looking for trout. As he says above there are no trout within 80 miles, only gar and some big suckers. I'd also recommend the Allegheny in Pittsburgh for those looking for PA trout, or the upper Susquehanna.

Oh, if only the Forks of the Ohio had trout...
Then there would be something with an adipose fin rising to the massive Hex hatches that are a nightly summer event...

Reminds me of my youth waterskiing on the Sacramento River at Garcia Bend. Hex's and rolling fish were everywhere as we drifted down exhausted with the umpteenth Coors in hand at last light.... Too bad they were all catfish! :)