1. Troutnut Forum
›
2. Fly Hatch Talk
›
3. Wow, they really can take forever to get off the water

John, my sympathies about the deck reshuffling; it does get confusing. I'll let Konchu deal with the hard questions, but one of the Western PMDs was the old E. infrequens. That former species is now thought to be a subspecies of dorothea, hence E. dorothea infrequens. Funny, I remember some guys on a Western site discussing how "sulphurs" had been "discovered" in the West. Of course, they were there all along, just under a slightly different name.

Now we have subspecies of species? Not only has the deck been re-shuffled but it appears the rules have changed too. :)

*** dorothea infrequens *** Why not call it "doroquens"?????

:) Actually, John, I would have thought that Eastern fly fishers would be thrilled now that they can just use their sulphur imitations out West! (Of course, with all the color variations, I guess it doesn't really work that way. Oh well . . . .)

I landed a beautiful 20" bow on one of my Midwest E. dorothea emerger patterns. :)

There you go! See, your fly-fishing life just got simpler. :)
(Although, are you sure it wasn't really a Midwest E. excrucians emerger?) ;)

It was actually a "PYOME-18". That stands for: Pale Yellow/Olive Mayfly Emerger - size 18. See all we need to do is start using SKU numbers for identifying specific species. If we get real good we can barcode them too. ;)

Geesh, I use to enjoy matching the hatch. It's a good thing the trout aren't so educated. :-)

"I landed a beautiful 20" bow on one of my Midwest E. dorothea emerger patterns. :)"


$#!%. I guess I'll have to shuffle the names again, if the midwestern fish insist on hitting the dorothea emerger. You know the fish can't be wrong.

Bar codes!!! Now that's a really good idea! (Quick, I have to patent a streamside mayfly bar code scanner!) :)

Okay you guys let's get back to the basics here! :-) Life was good in the late 1970's and 1980's, we learned our aquatic insects latin names and the trout sometimes agreed. Now we are adding another layer to the database for aquatic insects -- subspecies. We gotta stop that! :)

If you insist on adding new category grouping then here is my idea to take the confusion out of matching the hatch. We go to our local flyshop and pick up a box of Gonzo's flies all labeled by SKU numbers that match each insect.

I would bet each insect has a unique eyeball configuration. So we create the ultimate, miniature eyeball scanner! Just grab a fly from the water and run it by the scanner and presto we know the SKU number. A small PC device inside your vest is connected to the scanner via a small pin-on retractor. After scanning the mayfly the appropriate Gonzo fly box pops open and voila... the imitation to use is right in front of you!

Konchu, it was a Rocky Mountain, Western **trout** that ate my Midwest E. dorothea emerger pattern. Is that better or worse?

Good plan, John, but here's the catch: We all know that Gonzo's flies are just too damned difficult and nobody really ties them. (Except maybe Louis, and he's hopeless.) Commercial tiers just shake their heads and say, "What the #*%$!" Gonzo's flies are just a clever ruse designed to frustrate poor unsuspecting fly fishers and make them feel inadequate--just like scientific names for mayflies! :)

Lloyd, we all know commercial tiers dance to a different drummer. What I really liked about your flies and your book was it was not another "me-to" book. (That is why I buy few FF books anymore.) Flies, rods, lines, leaders and tactics have all changed dramatically over the years and not everyone has always accepted the changes.

BTW, I found some terrific grouse hackle, CDC and turkey biots out West at Trout Hunter (www.TroutHunt.com). At Mike Lawson's Henry's Fork Anglers I picked some wonderful Whiting's "Pro Grade" necks for $22 each.

Since my name was mentioned in this post. I thought I would reply especially to whoever is from Boiling Springs. Yes, I did my M.S. on Falling Spring in Chambersburg PA which was one of the legendary spring creeks of fly fishing history. I used to fish the stream for years and years sometimes with the legendary Charlie Fox. Fox loved the sulfurs. It was his favorite hatch (on the Letort too) In fact, I've done more research on the limestone spring creeks of Pennsylvania than anyone. All of the sulfur mayflies in Falling Spring that I know of especially when I did my research are Ephemerella rotunda Morgan which has been changed by McCafferty to Ephemerella invaria since E. invaria was the first described species of the group and would take taxonomic preference. However, in reference to the someone who said that I still insist on referring to them as E. rotunda I would like to explain to this gentleman that taxonomy is an arbitrary science at best. Unless Dr. McCafferty has DNA evidence (I hope he does) than that doesn't mean that he is correct. Although, if the DNA evidence is there that would make it invaria but there are number of us who do this stuff for a living who believe there are taxonomic differences between the two which may be worthless if DNA evidence proves otherwise.

Second, those who quote my thesis should read the introduction. I had all my sulfurs verified by Flowers at Florida A & M Univ. who is considered one of the finest aquatic entomologists in the country. Furthermore, I had not only stream specimens but I raised nymphs to mature adults in the lab from the stream because I wanted virgin imago males (please I hear you laughing but once the little buggers mate they screw up their genitalia; please no comments about humans on this). I once had a girl friend lose it when she saw what I was doing! Also, Flowers had every range of specimens in terms of size and months from April to November. As the size decreased from 12 in the spring to near 18 in fall mayflies did not resemble anything but E.rotunda. This species shows great variation in coloration and size (I have made a study of the sulfurs over the years) and number of spines on male genitalia. I looked at literally thousands and thousands of those male spinners during this time period. Yes, Falling Spring has very few hatches like it did then. Its sulfur hatches were unreal!

Ephemerella dorothea is a a mayfly that I believe inhabits warmer waters and many marginal trout streams (Greg Hoover at Penn State believes this also). There is always a chance that a new species of sulfur could have colonized F. Spring or any other stream that previously contained only E. invaria but I have reared these flies from many different streams and have done samplings across the East coast and almost everything I find is usually E. invaria (rotunda). It is one of the most widely distributed mayflies in trout streams and is an important water quality indicator.

One other point on classification many years ago while I was doing research on the Tricos the country's leading expert told me that there couldn't be any of the species I found because that species wasn't East of the Mississippi. Needless to say he was wrong so take classification, taxonomy and even distribution maps for what they are: arbitrary! They can be an aid but like everything else they must always be kept in the proper context. If you have specimens (male spinners) of the Ephemerellas and you would like them identified just send them to me and I'll be glad to take a look at them free of charge. You can find my address at: wwww.eugenemacri.com; www.flyfisher.com or www.limestoner.com.

Tight lines

and rising trout for everyone; and drink a beer and pray this heat wave leaves and we get some rain in PA.

gene macri

Gene-

Welcome to the forum. I am sorry you found it necessary to defend your position in your first post here. I went back and studied the post which refers to your research, and I can assure you that no slight was intended. Actually, quite the opposite. In any event, I hope you will put that aside, and continue to share your extensive mayfly knowledge and experience with all of us.

Sincerely,

Gene, I too would like to welcome you to the forum. I know the gentleman from Boiling Springs a bit, and that he holds your research in the very highest esteem, seeing you as someone who has provided important and accurate information about a much misunderstood phenomena. He is not active on this forum now, busy with work-related issues. I do believe that he'd be thrilled that you have posted here, and as Taxon said, that he meant no slight in his original post. He was clearly impressed when he related your findings to me months ago, and I recently explained your research to a friend who lives in Chambersburg and who fishes Falling Spring frequently. He had mentioned dortheas there and I told him that I believed you had proven that they weren't. It is very interesting to see your views on these two sulphur species and to note that water temperature may be a factor. Do you know of any differences between the two bugs that may be significant to the fly fisher, such as manner or quickness of emergence?